Line Out - Comments on Who's Your Favorite Frontwoman? http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f I haven't opened up one of these discussions for a while, so I'd say it's high time for another roll call of Line Out readers' opinions. I'm not generally inclined to introduce gender as a categorical caveat, but when it... Copyright 2008 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:00:42 -0800 Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:04:41 -0800 http://www.movabletype.org/?v=3.34 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Comment by Chris Estey I'm on yer side about a bunch of those, especially Poly Styrene ...

I'll never forget:

Vi Subversa of the Poison Girls
Bre of Daylight Basement
Siouxsie
Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders
Betty Davis (pre-Grace Jones avant-funk songwriter)
Jarboe
Lydia Lunch

...and many, many more

]]> Chris Estey http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442800 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442800 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:05:22 -0800 Comment by Ma'Chell Duma LaVassar Sooo Glad you mentioned Betty Davis, she's awesomely underrated.

There are some great new girls out there keeping it alive:

Kate from The Long Blondes
The one and only Beth Ditto
Alison Goldfrapp
If you haven't seen Marina Ribatski from Bonde do Role yet she'll knock your socks off.

And love the new alblum or hate it Karen O's influence on the new generation of rock girls can't be denied.

]]> Ma'Chell Duma LaVassar http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442816 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442816 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:45:17 -0800 Comment by Q Roxy Epoxy (Epoxies) is incomparable!

]]> Q http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442841 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442841 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:41:26 -0800 Comment by R Let's see...

As for all time favorites:
Annette Peacock - avant-jazz singer/composer - still don't know how so few people are aware of her

Yoko Ono - love her or hate her, her first two solo albums are incredibly important in the evolution of avant-garde music

As for recent favorites:
Liz Bougsatsos, of Gang Gang Dance - don't know if there's anyone cooler on Earth

Elisa Ambrogio, of Magik Markers - makes rock actually feel kind of dangerous again

Merja Kokkonen, of Islaja - Finnish free-folk nymph

Liz Harris, of Grouper - A one-woman band, consisting entirely of her processed vocals - taking the notion Bjork had with Vespertine but actually making it interesting

Wata, of Boris - She doesn't sing, but arguably she commands the most attention on stage, since she's a lovely, delicate wisp of a woman who kicks out incredibly heavy, brutal jams on her guitar.

]]> R http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442842 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442842 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:41:45 -0800 Comment by Lee Christofferson Wendy O. Williams I think should be up there.

]]> Lee Christofferson http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442868 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442868 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:53:30 -0800 Comment by neo-realist Vas Kallas of Hanzel und Gretyl - Sings with a powerful gutteral (faux) German accent and has great stage presence.

Wendy O. Williams (RIP)- Sung in a deep gutteral voice, gave you duck taped nipples and could wield a chainsaw on stage.

Ditto on Beth Ditto.

Also the girl who used to be the lead singer for erase errata and now is the singer/guitarist.

]]> neo-realist http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442872 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c442872 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:01:58 -0800 Comment by sherzbot Agnes of Homomilitia/Lost
Victoria of Damad
Deno of DIRT
Lyz (?) of Antischism

]]> sherzbot http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443039 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443039 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:12:17 -0800 Comment by redfem well, exene, who at times, was just skanky enough and drunk enough and brilliant enough for me!

carla bozulich blows my head off with the mear thought of her existence.

lauren hill, jesus!
and yes, MS. Love.

]]> redfem http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443040 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443040 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:12:18 -0800 Comment by Charles P Christine McVie, way better than Stevie Nicks.

]]> Charles P http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443089 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443089 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:07:57 -0800 Comment by Fnarf ANYTHING is better than Stevie Nicks. Flesh-eating bacteria is better than Stevie Nicks. Cervical cancer is better than Stevie Nicks. Dick Cheney's sweaty inner thighs are better than Stevie Nicks.

I'll take Rose Melberg of the Softies, please. Or Lisa Marr of Cub. Jessica Griffin of Would-Be-Goods. No way you're leaving out Amelia Fletcher of Talulah Gosh, Heavenly, and Marine Research.

Go back a few years and give me Debbie Harry and Patti Smith. Go back further and give me Lesley Gore or Cher or Karen Carpenter.

]]> Fnarf http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443108 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443108 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:21:02 -0800 Comment by Fnarf How could I have forgotten Tracey Thorn from Everything But the Girl? Clare Grogan of Altered Images? And best of all, my vote goes to Pam Berry, of the Pines, Glo-Worm, Seashell Sea, Black Tambourine and a thousand other bands.

]]> Fnarf http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443118 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443118 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:32:51 -0800 Comment by kerri harrop queen of new orleans soul, irma thomas.

tina turner, both with and without ike.

loretta lynn, in the studio and on the stage.

]]> kerri harrop http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443119 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443119 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:33:39 -0800 Comment by Pox Currently fixating on Storm Large.

]]> Pox http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443120 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443120 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:35:58 -0800 Comment by Chris Kate and Cindy of B52s
Trish Keenan of Broadcast

]]> Chris http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443121 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443121 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:36:07 -0800 Comment by genevieve Gotta echo Chrissy Hynde, Debbie Harry, and absolutely Mia Zapata

]]> genevieve http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443133 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443133 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:43:19 -0800 Comment by Scojo Erica of Lost Goat.
Laurie Sue of Ludicra.
Renae of SKARP

]]> Scojo http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443138 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443138 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:45:10 -0800 Comment by Josh A. Haven't seen these mentioned:

Janis Joplin threw down.
Lisa Kekaula - The Bell Rays
Missy Elliot
Scout Niblett
The ladies of Sleater Kinney
Kim Gordon - Sonic Youth

]]> Josh A. http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443148 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443148 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:53:54 -0800 Comment by segal That sassy one in ESG
Margaret Fiedler of Laika
Ursula Rucker
Hope Sandoval of Mazzy Star

]]> segal http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443161 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443161 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:10:01 -0800 Comment by segal Also, Betty Davis seconded or (thirded).

]]> segal http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443164 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443164 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:10:55 -0800 Comment by Eric Exene.
And, ok, this will come across as something of a minority report on these pages, but a flic of the bic also for Exene's diametric opposite, Margot Timmins.

]]> Eric http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443171 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443171 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:18:59 -0800 Comment by justin SIOUXSIE SIOUX!

dUH!

]]> justin http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443173 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443173 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:22:03 -0800 Comment by I Heart
Joan Jett

Bjork

]]> I Heart http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443182 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443182 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:30:09 -0800 Comment by flamingbanjo Exene for attitude. Johnette Napolitano for pipes. Ditto Neko Case. Kristen Hersh. Does Joni Mitchell count as a frontwoman or a solitary genius? Chrissie Hynde.

Joan Jett live is clearly a rock god(dess.) Ditto Tina Turner.

]]> flamingbanjo http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443184 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443184 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:31:39 -0800 Comment by Sean From a couple of local shows I've seen recently, I've got to add the following:

- Rachel Flotard (Visqueen)
- Alexi Void (Go Like Hell)

]]> Sean http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443201 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443201 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:48:05 -0800 Comment by Erik R Lots of good ones alread mentioned (Siouxsie Sioux, Debbie Harry, Joan Jett, Chrissie Hynde, Karen O., etc.), but here's a few I didn't see:

Ann Wilson of Heart
Kathleen Hanna
Amanda Palmer of the Dresden Dolls
Laura Pleasants of Kylesa
Yako of Melt Banana
Arzu of the Selby Tigers
Ryann Donnelly of Schoolyard Heroes

Also, I saw her mentioned, but I've got to give much local love to Renae from Skarp.

]]> Erik R http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443211 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443211 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:00:54 -0800 Comment by Johnny Cop So many good ones listed here. I'll add Ari Upp (the Slits, the New Age Steppers).

]]> Johnny Cop http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443222 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443222 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:18:40 -0800 Comment by sexy_devil no mention of NINA HAGEN??!!- the mother of PUNK!

DIAMANDA GALAS
LYDIA LUNCH
LAURIE ANDERSON
VAS OF HANZEL UND GRETYL
SIOUXSIE SIOUX
DEBBY HARRY
JOAN JETT
ANNIE LENOX
LENE LOVERICH
BETTY X
ALEXEI VOID OF GO LIKE HELL
MIA ZAPPATA
SELENE VIGIL OF SEVEN YEAR BITCH
L7

BABES IN TOYLAND
COURTNEY LOVE
DAISY CHAINSAW/QUEEN ADRENA
MY RUIN
JACK OFF JILL/SCARLING
HANIS OF ATARI TEENAGE RIOT
MEG LEE CHIN-PIGFACE
JOHNETTE NAPOLAPOLITANO
PATTI SMITH
WENDY O'
WILLIAMS
the cute little punk chick from XRAY SPECS

the list goes on....

]]> sexy_devil http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443239 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443239 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:35:18 -0800 Comment by Dougsf Not a single mention of Fanny? They shared the duties of frontwoman amongst a few of them, but in their earliest lineup (first 3 lps), any one of'em could hold her own in those stadium rock dominated times.

And agreed with above - definately Chrissie Hynde.

]]> Dougsf http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443247 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443247 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:38:50 -0800 Comment by front stage presence ANN WILSON
&
SIOUXSIE SIOUX

]]> front stage presence http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443288 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443288 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:25:49 -0800 Comment by nipper JAYNE COUNTY, you stinking homophobes! and Can the Can herself, Miss Baby Come On Over To My Side...Suzi Quatro (there would be no Joan Jett without SQ). and Carole King, EVEN if she'd never sung a note her Brill Building career would earn her an honorary spot. And that lady, I forget her name, from the Shocking Blue! lemme see who else...Julie Driscoll!! um, (holy shit) Sharon Tandy! and my sweetest sugar baby Miss Connie/Chris Clark!!

DougSF HOLLA! FANNY STYLE!

]]> nipper http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443348 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443348 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:36:29 -0800 Comment by Ministry of Disinfo Nina Hagen,Betty X, Vas of Hanzel und Gretyl, Joan Jett, Blondie, Pat Benatar,
Lita Ford- too many awesome frontwoman to mention.

]]> Ministry of Disinfo http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443361 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443361 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:51:15 -0800 Comment by Hannah Levin Ah, good call on Jayne County, Nipper.

]]> Hannah Levin http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443393 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443393 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:15:27 -0800 Comment by gogravy Yes, Polly(s)! A good front woman can be the backbone of a band. Some of my faves:
Su Tissu of Suburban Lawns - that voice, that pout
Siouxsie Sioux - punk goddess
Carla Bozolich - I concur, she is the shit
Lisa Kekaula of the Bell Rays can belt it out like few others
Chrissie Hynde - sexy and sultry
Lene Lovich - shivers in the spine
Nena Hagan - she just gets better with age

]]> gogravy http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443487 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443487 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:56:52 -0800 Comment by Chris Estey I will add:

The lead singer of Chinas Cominas
(What was her name, my punk peeps?)

Haruko of DAE and the Buttersprites too!!!


]]> Chris Estey http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443560 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443560 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:20:57 -0800 Comment by Fnarf Cynthia Genser was the singer in Chinas Comidas. Good call!

]]> Fnarf http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443568 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443568 Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:55:46 -0800 Comment by redfem oh, god. how could i.....
lynn breedlove from fucking tribe 8. The only female front who gives full frontal.

]]> redfem http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443756 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c443756 Wed, 09 Aug 2006 01:46:23 -0800 Comment by chicks rock Ditto for Siouxsie, Johnette Napolitano, Neko Case, Kristin Hersh, Courtney Love, Mia Zapata, Tina Turner, Polly Harvey, Ann Wilson, Chrissie Hynde.

Also: Etta James, Kim Deal, Kelley Deal, Kate Bush...

]]> chicks rock http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444011 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444011 Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:51:50 -0800 Comment by gravy Oh yeah...how could I forget Kristin Hersch. Geez.

And after last night - Peaches rulz supreme.

]]> gravy http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444831 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444831 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:51:24 -0800 Comment by Myloveisajoke I have to say eith Gen form the Genitorturers, just because she's so damned sexy, Karin from Collide because her voice/lyrics put me in the mood ANYTIME or primarily Sonja Kraushofer from L'ame Immortelle...I can't say no to a curvacious Austrian redhead (albeit dyed).

]]> Myloveisajoke http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444864 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444864 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:16:47 -0800 Comment by music_junkie Siouxsie Sioux, Shirley Manson, OTEP, Betty X, Joan Jett, Johnette Napolitano from Concrete Blonde, that's all for now, but there's more...

]]> music_junkie http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444866 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444866 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:21:27 -0800 Comment by Lucky Strike So I would have to say Betty X has killer stage presence. She's this tinny woman that comes to her band mates shoulders in height but when it comes to metal she doesn't hold back any punches A woman I would be afraid to run into in a dark ally. When it comes to metal that’s what I like to see in a woman fronted band. Rock on Betty X.

]]> Lucky Strike http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444879 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444879 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:38:26 -0800 Comment by Bob When it comes to the chicks singing their hearts out, I am still looking for who has the screaminest vocs. That brings me directly to Gen from the Genitorturers, and my new found love Betty X. Both seem to have an awesome stage presence and the hellified vocals I am looking for. Keep on rockin' ladies!

]]> Bob http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444883 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444883 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:44:47 -0800 Comment by Julie Allison Wolfe of Bratmobile/Partyline and of course Betty X.

]]> Julie http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444928 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444928 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:37:02 -0800 Comment by Julie oh hell, i totally forgot to mention one of the best female vocalists EVER, monica nelson formerly of the obituaries now of generation out of portland.

]]> Julie http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444932 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444932 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:40:00 -0800 Comment by Hannah Levin Alright, it's official--time for me to check out Betty X.

]]> Hannah Levin http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444967 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c444967 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:19:51 -0800 Comment by Dan Halligan I can't believe no one said Penelope Houston of the Avengers. Poly Styrene of X-Ray Spex was a good call, I'd also throw in Sinead O'Conor and Siouxsie.

]]> Dan Halligan http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445003 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445003 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:03:14 -0800 Comment by THE FAZ BETTY X ALL THE WAY!!!

]]> THE FAZ http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445023 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445023 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:42:34 -0800 Comment by James Nihil Kat Bjelland. Hands down.

then also:
Amber(Jucifer),Otep Shamaya(Otep),Julie Christmas(Made Out of Babies) and now Betty X.

]]> James Nihil http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445039 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445039 Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:08:54 -0800 Comment by Anais NON KARYN CRISIS!!!

Wendy O. Williams

Betty X

]]> Anais NON http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445169 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445169 Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:09:53 -0800 Comment by BOB Betty X!!!!!!! and let me tell you why. What she delivers when she on stage is 100% in the moment high energy performance. What more could you want,right?

]]> BOB http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445222 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445222 Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:09:05 -0800 Comment by Asraiya Betty X
without a doubt-
Betty rocks!

]]> Asraiya http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445266 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c445266 Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:18:10 -0800 Comment by oqnvsjt qprfzdkto xrpjev mwrofnbp gseirbxpz kqia cloysfz zvqxwbgl udqifzxn

]]> oqnvsjt qprfzdkto http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c447448 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c447448 Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:03:41 -0800 Comment by eybuszfw lxawcnvh viaurjz waji hgifwslt mcsqgktd flkjh cnduowkp zdhyvkx fbnaqoeil tqcaywf

]]> eybuszfw lxawcnvh http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c447450 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c447450 Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:03:53 -0800 Comment by oqnvsjt qprfzdkto xrpjev mwrofnbp gseirbxpz kqia cloysfz zvqxwbgl udqifzxn

]]> oqnvsjt qprfzdkto http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c447452 http://lineout.thestranger.com/2006/08/whos_your_favorite_f#c447452 Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:04:41 -0800