The Stranger

Geez, I must have hit a raw nerve. In general, when someone bellows this loud over a criticism, it means there is a sacred cow in the room.

To focus on the actual issue, my best understanding of the case for Vera is (1) all ages DIY space needs to exist on a permanent basis, (2) the only way to accomplish this is through a city sanctioned, government sponsored program. I think Vera supporters have articulated those points well. I just don't happen to agree.

One of the comments in the original thread mentioned that the spaces that existed "back in the day" never thrived, and the acts never got big. I think that is the wrong measuring stick, How is this for a radical idea - not everything is supposed to last forever. Maybe kids creating real DIY spaces should also learn about failure, about impermanence, and do so without the safety net of a city sponsored and approved facility.

As to the increasingly silly "punk" vs "radical" argument, what gives? Perhaps my choice of the term was ill advised. It's simply that the late 70s and 80s gave birth to a DIY ethos that was, for a time, best exemplified by punk rock. Not the music as a style, but in the sense that pioneers such as Greg Ginn started their own labels, produced their own records, promoted their own shows, and showed others how to do so by example.

It's almost silly to call Vera "radical" - it's, by the supporters own admissions, a city approved and sponsored program. It's as radical as the Mt. Baker Community Club.

Finally, I think it's great that Vera "focuses intensely" on "teaching those young people how to make decisions as a team, how to work towards consensus, or how to be respectful to your peers in a decisionmaking process." I just think that kind of stuff happens all over the place, in a lot of different contexts, and some Vera supporters seem to think that they are the only ones creating that opportunity for kids.

One last note. A Vera supporter raised the issue of 924 Gilman in Berkeley. My point exactly. They refused any public sanction or help. It was created for less than $10,000.

Anyway, it's worth discussing these issues.

Ari - great writing. Just to make the point as it is probably lost on many who aren't a part of Vera, but people like Ari Spool, Christopher Hong, Suthap Manivog, Ryann Donnely and current Vera program director Melissa Quayle are proof how Vera is helping to create great, capable, intelligent, independent young people who are vital to our music community. They are the best argument for why Vera is important.

RTM - you totally misstate the case for Vera. Oh well, you just don't get it. But if you were really around when Greg Ginn was around, that's ok, Vera's not meant for you. You had your glory days, now let this generation have their's and do it their own way, which is different from your generation. Not worse, just different.

Vera's not a sacred cow, just something people feel passionate about and are able to defend intelligently. Reality is a bunch of indie music folks got politically organized, fought the city, won, changed the laws, and turned that success into a great venue that will serve generations of independent youth in Seattle.

Seattle has always had this sort of self-loathing of it's own success, and you certainly seem to be holding on to that. Beyond that, I am not sure what you base all your criticism on, I'm not going to address it point by point because I know you won't answer anything directly based on your misstatements of others' arguments thus far. But it does seem like you are hating on something just because it works and is getting community support.

Dave, I really don't get all this heat. I'm not hating Vera, (but it is kind of fun to watch how loud its supporters are screaming) but I am amazed that it takes a million and a half dollars to create a DIY space. And please, feel free to tell me what I mistated - I thought Ari stated his position clearly and well. He thinks it's necessary to work with government support to create a permanent DIY space for youth performance. I think (a) if it's government supported, it's not truly DIY, and (b) permanence is not necessarily a good thing. Constant re-invention is necessary for each generation. I find it ironic that you acknowledge Greg Ginn but say this is a new generation. Dave, you are no spring chicken anymore either. And what exactly are kids 15 years from now going to do with the $1.8 million albatross left them by this group? Any effort to do something different, suitable to their needs and desires, will be doomed because the Vera space exists.

I'm sorry people find that so threatening. And I'm still amazed that you can call $1.8 million (a) cheap, and (b) DIY.

I'll leave it alone now. You can all go back to patting each other on the back.

I have a lot of respect for the mission of the Vera project and have greatly enjoyed the few shows over the years there that piqued my interest. But calling it a "radical DIY venue" is a little hyperbolic. There is very little that is "radical" about taking nearly $2 million and starting a performance space which requires admission and puts on workshops for young people. And as far as being a "DIY venue", it's a nice, licensed, legitimate space designed to be a music venue that is holding paying shows. Yeah, there are volunteers, but I've known lots of clubs where people volunteered their time in order to make the trains run on time and none of them struck me as DIY venues - they were just rock clubs with a dedicated community of rock fans who wanted to make sure the place they liked to see shows at continued to exist. I mean, honestly, The Funhouse or The Blue Moon is more radical than the Vera Project as a venue. That it is staffed by people much younger than me or that I can buy candy there between bands reminds me more of the YMCA than of Gilman.

Again, I think the Vera Project is an admirable project and I hope it (unlike most "DIY venues") sticks around for a long time. But to try to frame the Vera experience as something like a DIY venue is, to my ears, an insult to the amount of work and commitment that people who've been involved in "real" DIY venues have put in. If things go tits up, no one at Vera is going to get kicked out of their house or arrested or have their stuff confiscated by the cops, you know?

I don't know - it just seems like some of the experiences I had as a teenager getting into underground music almost twenty years ago - driving hours to see shows in a rented dojo or Eagles hall, sending away for mail order catalogs from tiny labels, spending hours digging through used record bins in every town I visited for some rare 7" or spending all night at Kinko's putting together a fanzine - are experiences that kids today are missing out on. And not all of these experiences were fun! Most were a total drag, but the effort it took to participate in that sort of community really made me appreciate the little victories - finding a great band, seeing a great show, meeting people who were interested in talking about underground music - that much more. Today, a kid can Google any band on the planet and in five seconds be listening to an MP3 of that band and in twenty seconds be writing about it on a blog and in forty seconds be buying the record off eBay or watching a video of a show on YouTube. Yeah, this is all very convenient but that effort is gone, replaced by convenience. And I think that's kind of too bad.

Damn Dan and RTM, you guys just sound dated. "Things were better when we were young, life was hard, I had to walk 20 miles in the snow to see my punk shows". Ok grandpa, we get it.

But you say "There is very little that is "radical" about taking nearly $2 million and starting a performance space which requires admission and puts on workshops for young people." And are ill-informed. Vera was started with almost no money. It has existed for 5 years in various spaces, most recently in a space on 4th Ave that was revamped and built out by volunteers and members. No one is "taking" $2 mil, the organization, which is for the most part by it's youth members, is raising it. For that they are getting a 9300 square foot space with a long term lease and cheap rent in the center of one of the more expensive cities in the world. That space is not just for shows - it is also an artspace, cafe space, silk-screen studio, meeting space, punk-rock yoga space, etc, etc, etc. Many shows that happen at Vera are free, and they range from indie folk to spoken word to underground metal to punk to hip hop, and on and on.

What is radical about Vera is how it is structured as an organization - it is run by it's members, who are predominantly young people. It is an organization where youth are empowered and involved at every level - from running security, sound, booking, promoting, cleaning the space, designing the space, sitting on the board of directors, etc. Participatory democracy is inherent in everything Vera does. And the organizational structure is very flat, unlike most top down run non-profits. Vera isn't some group of well meaning adults who want to serve youth like the YMCA (god bless 'em), it is an organization of young people working together with members of the music community to create a community space they control and are responsible for. It's so strange you can't take get over your bias to see this reality.

Vera does get funds from the City who in turn has no control over the content of Vera. And Vera could easily run without the financial support it gets from the city.

Being crusty and drunk at the Funhouse or Blue Moon does not make you radical. It makes you crusty and drunk, usually meaning your smell and say stupid shit.

All that said, the real debate here seems to be a bit about semantics. Calling Vera DIY may be a bit off. It is afterall and organization, and no matter how progressive it IS structured, which is what may not to your liking if you prefer your music in illegal underground spaces, it might not be for you. Which is totally legit. But it's not a slag on Vera.

you know that i am almost always in your corner, meinert, but you really blow it here by saying that rtm and dan sound "dated" with their very valid points.

i am hesitant to publicly criticize vera for a couple of reasons. first and foremost, i have many friends that are either current or former board members. i know how hard they all have worked for the vera project.

secondly, the concept is a good and noble one, and one that benefits our community. i don't think anyone can legitimately disagree with that.

that said, there are some really valid criticisms of vera, starting with the ridiculously high cost. i, for one, am tired of seeing the vera project receive the lion's share of art-related charitable giving in seattle. i am sick of mailers, events, fundraisers, and pleas for more cash.

i have said it for a long time: vera needs to figure out how to be more self-sustainable. they don't make money on shows and i have seen no efforts that have resulted in significant income to maintain operating costs in the past.

i hate to even address the issue of "back in the day," but it bears repeating: tremendous, thriving music scenes have blossomed and flourished in plenty of locales, including our own city, without the public having to bank roll the operation.

yes, ari, rents are more expensive now. it is all relative. i grew up seeing shows at places like the UCT hall, gorilla gardens, the metropolis, and other places that helped foster seattle's growing music community.

these places were, generally, out of the way shit holes. that aesthetic is an important part of the process. it made bands hungry for something better, it made promoters try harder, and it made suburban kids coming into the city realize that not everything is clean, shiny, safe, and new.

the educational aspect of vera is admirable and i hope the new digs will provide growth in that area. because, honestly, there is nothing radical about a super expensive venue located on the goddamn seattle center grounds.

this new incarnation of vera already looks destined for exactly what its location is: a spot for parents to drop the kids off while they go to dinner, a place for the city to point to when called out on their continued lack of appreciaition for the economic impact of seattle's music world, and, ultimately, a sanitized version of what rock and roll is all about.

in other words, a DIY version of vera's new neighbor, the experience music project.

smells like teen spirit, indeed.

Thank you, Kerri, both for posting after 2am and for being willing to take an unpopular stance. You're not advocating for the abolition of the Vera, but you're voicing your critical opinion. You must be crazy.

Kerri - love you, but you know you had this opinion when vera had a free venue, now you are just altering and continuing the criticism. It's fine to not like Vera, you never have though, so let's be honest about that. Because of that you don't know much about it's inner workings. What I am about to write might seem harsh, please don't take it as such, you know I am a big fan of yours, except on this.

When someone complains how about how when they were young, before the web, punk was harder, it does make them sound dated. Really, really dated. So yeah, it's a fair criticism

On your other points -

you say - "that said, there are some really valid criticisms of vera, starting with the ridiculously high cost."

Again - Vera is basically building a new 9000 sq ft space that will have a very low rent and long term lease. 1.8 mil sounds like a lot, but over time, it won't be. The great thing is that it CAN be looked at over time because there is a long-term lease. So while the venues you went to over two decades ago no longer exist, Vera will be here for future generations. Also keep in mind that the 80's venues didn't have to comply with the current city of seattle building codes, they didn't have to meet federal ADA standards, they didn't have to build out a whole venue, and they were basically shit holes, not great spaces to learn sound and have many other vital classes and events. Sure, you like shit holes, that's fine. On the location at the Center - it is is centrally located and on bus routes so it is accessible for young people who don't have cars. The youth actually picked the space. The great thing with Vera is that older folks like us don't get to force our 'back-in-the-day' crusty perspective on the youth, THEY get to make the decisions. I don't know RTM, but it's funny to me to hear from someone who works for the state government, someone who works for a beer company and someone who writes for a corporate alternative weekly talk about punk, independent, non-subsidized venues and liking shit hole venues. Kerri - you DJ at Havanah! a great space no doubt and I love the owner, but it's not like you're out there doing nights at the funhouse or in crusty punk hardcore houses - Havana is an upscale place that cost more than twice per square foot to build out than Vera is, and it pays high rent and is where the Kirkland crowd can invade Capitol Hill on the weekends.

you go on to say..." i, for one, am tired of seeing the vera project receive the lion's share of art-related charitable giving in seattle. i am sick of mailers, events, fundraisers, and pleas for more cash."

what do you base this on? Vera doesn't even receive one tenth of 1% of arts funding that happens in this city let alone the 'lion's share'. I know you know better than to say this. Let's just take one example - the new olympic sculpture park is costing somewhere near $100 mil. Do the math as they say, and then add in all the other arts funding. Really now.

"i have said it for a long time: vera needs to figure out how to be more self-sustainable. they don't make money on shows and i have seen no efforts that have resulted in significant income to maintain operating costs in the past."

I know it was 2am that you were writing, probably after playing in the snow so you might be a little punchy mixing up different equations here. Vera is currently raising money for a capital campaign. We're not talking about operating funds. A capital campaign is used for things like building a new venue, which is what Vera is doing. So first let's make sure people understand there is a big difference between a capital campaign and raising operating money. Now, about your criticism of Vera raising money for operating - well, Vera, unlike other music spaces you mention - doesn't sell liquor. So they don't take money from liquor sales and sponsorships like other venues. They do make a sizeable portion of their operating budget from door covers. But see, the point of vera isn't to charge high cover and try to cover all costs that way. Part of the mission is to have a low cover, often no cover, and make the programs and events accessible to young people on small budgets, and especially young people who come from less affluent neighborhoods. I know us white middle and upper middle class kids in Seattle who went to shitholes 'back in the day' didn't have to worry so much about cover, but if you check out the covers charged at Vera today, they are about the same as when we were young, 20-25 year ago. So while the cost of rents, building requirements, and everything else has skyrocketed, Vera's cover charge is in real dollars lower than what was paid 'back in the day'.

Also, you all are forgetting that many of the spaces used in the 80's were subsidized. Sure, it seems 'underground' to do shows at the OddFellows - but keep in mind that the OddFellows subsidized those shows. The people involved in the music and shows had no say in the organization, but money was still raised you just didn't see it. Same with venues in churches, community centers, theaters, etc. The great thing about Vera is that the organization of youth putting on the shows now also controls the space.

then you say "i hate to even address the issue of "back in the day," but it bears repeating: tremendous, thriving music scenes have blossomed and flourished in plenty of locales, including our own city, without the public having to bank roll the operation."

they blossomed and then self-destructed, while being attacked and shut down by the city. So kids organized, changed the laws, took over, and got the community to fund something that they control that won't be shut down by the fools who make the rules.

When I look at the now self righteous 80's and early 90's generation, I see only that most of the people self-destructed and got corporate jobs. A few got into bands that went to major labels and got paid for a while. A very few started their own things, like sub pop, that still exist and are thriving. Again most went to work for the man.

Vera smells better than that to me - it smells like radical youth organizing to take control of their own music and art instead of being self-destructive. And I am going to do all I can to support that because it is awesome, and I see the effects of Vera daily in young people who are helping run the music scene at all levels in Seattle. And a big 'fuck yes' for that.

The fact remains that the Vera doesn't give shows to all bands. while i appreciate the space given over DIY, the fact is that my band will not get a show there. the arrogance of the booking system there gives bands like Akimbo, who are awful a gig, but won't even take the time to write back to me, is appaling. why should the city and its citizens shell out if the Vera is just going to continue its members only music club? they are not getting any of my money!

Kerri, you nailed it. Punk rock should not be safe and shiny and brand new. Keeping music dangerous is important.

I like the idea of the Vera being self-supported, but I'd much rather see a Japanther show on the street corner that the cops break up 15 minutes into the set than in the warm, comfy confines of some city-sanctioned venue with shiny, clean bathrooms.

Music is not supposed to be safe. Rock and roll is dangerous. Let's champion that.

Every venue is city-sanctioned. Except for the house parties.

Yes, endanger the youth! Drugs, violence! Cop beat downs! Hooray! I'm cool because I work for a big corporation but like to fantasize about the dangerous shows kids go to! Oops, got to get off my computer owned by the corporation I work for. See ya at the yuppy club tonight!

hmmm... not sure what DIY shows you go to but the ones I go to seem to police themselves rather nicely out of respect for the community. No drugs, no booze, no assholes. Perhaps that's what keeps you from attending?

Vera is awesome, they deserve more money. No problem there. I did think it was unnecessary to diss on school jazz programs:

"A school jazz program may force a young person to learn more about jazz music than the Vera Project will, but it is unlikely that it focuses any energy on teaching those young people how to make decisions as a team, how to work towards consensus, or how to be respectful to your peers in a decisionmaking process. The Vera focuses on that intensely."

"Force a young person to learn..."? That's a bit misinformed... jazz band is not math class. In fact, between the Roosevelt and Garfield jazz bands alone, you are talking about a sizable amount of people who have gone on to professional careers in music. And then there are the great contributions of band directors Scott Brown & Clarence Acox... this isn't to knock vera, vera is great, but so are school jazz programs, they both deserve more support than they get. As for "Punk Rock", I remember one time in High School at Roosevelt Ray Brown was doing a clinic with the jazz band. So i skipped class, got stoned, and went into the tiny band rehearsal room to watch a living music legend school the jazz band. To me that was "rock n roll high school", and i doubt you had to "force" any of those young jazz musicians to be in that room...

One of my favorite things about The Vera Project is taht it's an incredible opportunity for young people to get involved in the DIY punk scene. I've been putting on shows at houses and teen centers and bike shops, etc, for a while now, and as time goes on I'm finding more and more youth previously with the Vera Project who are now doing organizing of their own. Through the Vera they learn how to abide by the rules the city has in place (or how to get around them), and about how important partnership is with local non-profits and community groups.

I think it's silly to have a semantical debate over whether Vera is radical or DIY. However, The Vera Project without a doubt fosters the kind of energy and passion that the DIY punk scene has been led by. The Vera also champions the cause of DIY through avenues that the punks have traditionally ignored, and now we have a really solid group of people advocating for us. The DIY scene in Seattle is really diverse and vibrant, and I feel that's been largely influence by The Vera Project.

-Benji

oh dave. i respect and appreciate your passion and dedication to vera but really have to question why you are so heavily on blast in this thread.

the snarky comments, disses, and personal arguments you are throwing out here are really unbecoming and, honestly, not your style.

you've met all legitimate criticisms of vera with a barrage of defensive words. you're good at debate, which is one of the things i appreciate about you. but, come on man, there is room for all opinion on the topic of vera without the name calling and refusal to listen to very valid points raised by others.

i have niether the time nor the inclination to defend my position. i said my piece. but, i do want to clear up these points:

1. i posted after 2 a.m. because i am suffering from insomnia and my schedule is all jumbled up. i went and played in the snow after posting. sober.

2. one of the reasons my schedule is such a mess is because i have been dj'ing more lately, including my regular wednesday night at havana. i don't know what this has to do with vera and don't know why you even brought it up.

i never claimed to be "punk" or that i was "out there doing nights at the funhouse," as you say. i like nice things. i like clean bathrooms and well-made drinks and comfortable surroundings. i am a grown ass woman; my punk days are long gone.

3. where i work has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. the same is applicable to the other voices of dissent here, who you also call out in #8. no one is claiming to be an authority on punk rock. we are all obviously of a certain age, which lends weight to opinion based on past experience.

vera is not for me, or rtm, or dan, or even you. but, as adults "working for the man," we are the ones constantly being asked to fund vera. we have the right to question where that money goes and how the organization benefits the community.

4. you claim that i have "never like(d) vera," which is a completely false statement. do i like going to all-ages shows? no. i am 39. i do not want to hang out with teenagers. that does not mean i don't appreciate what vera does, nor does it mean that i don't like it. it's not for me. i don't hang out at the science center -- that doesn't mean i don't like it.

5. when i said "art-related charitable giving" i should have said "music community-related charitable giving." vera has had its hand out for as long as i can remember. i am curious to know exactly how much money vera has received from the public, and in particular the music community, over the years. i would guess that the number is pretty astronomical.

there are a lot of other points i'd like to address but, frankly, i don't see the point. dave, you have long had a personal stake in vera's success and i admire the tireless work you, and many others, have put into the venue.

but, honestly, your refusal to acknowledge some of the very real criticisms raised here is detrimental and, at times in this thread, pretty rude.

no one is calling for the head of vera and i don't think anyone here can legitimately say that it isn't an important organization. just as it is the public's responsibility to foster creative growth and education, it is also their responsibility to question how those noble efforts are achieved.

still love you, man. but, really, you don't have to be so very much on blast here.

I come from the overrated world mentioned often here of having to figure it out on my own...hanging around community college radio stations filing records, traveling to the bowels of the city to see shows in not so cool environments for 14 year old girls, writing for marginal fanzines...sometimes I would score backstage passes to bigger rock shows, more fascinated by how it all worked back there than by meeting the band. I was looking for mentors and examples in a crazy, non-traditional business (the "business of show" to quote Hedwig), a dubious find in many of those environments for a young person, especially a girl.

Did I have a lot fun? Hell yes. Did I get some valuable street smarts that carry through to today? Sure. And I wound up doing many things I dreamed about back then. But I am jealous of the Vera kids (and I think some of you naysayers may be too). I would have killed to have the access and opportunities they have. Some of us don't want to grow up to work in banks, and the things they learn (and adults they meet) at Vera can be the springboard to jobs in the arts, the music business or to starting their own thing in addition to the other great benefits of just having this kind of space. They can still go it alone, but my experience, the type of which has been romanticized elsewhere in this blog, makes me say yay for Vera. Trust me RTM, even with support there will still be plenty of opportunities for these kids to fail. And the truth is, if the kids don't want Vera, it will fail, even with all of the most well intentioned adult mentors and money behind it. So all of you punk purists can rest easy, in the immortal words of SS Decontrol, the kids will have their say, which is the point of Vera...oh and by the way, Ari is a girl --another awesome thing about Vera, all the talented young women coming out of there. That's worth the donation alone.

Rock on kids.

Gawd, I couldn't even read all of that, but while skimming it, one thing caught my eye - "There are, of course, not many more cheap spaces in easily accessible (by bike or bus, since kids don’t often have cars) parts of Seattle."
Since you admit to having been only 3 years old back in the days when Green River was around, you would have no idea that there weren't many cheap spaces in easily accessible parts of anywhere back then.
The best venue around for seeing shows when I was 15 or 16?
Natasha's in Bremerton.
Not only did you have to get your shit together to get on the ferry to cross the water, but once you got over there, the club was not close to the ferry dock at all. Hopefully, you had a friend who had a car and could scrounge up the ferry fee, otherwise, you were walking or hitch hiking on the other side.
Then there was getting BACK to the ferry after the show, and if you were really lucky, you actually made the last one back that night!
But we didn't complain, because shows out there were awesome (riots on the ferry afterward notwithstanding) and it was always an adventure.
That is neither here nor there for what Vera is doing, and why should any of this be? It seems to me that no matter how Vera is going about it, they are trying to help kids have a good time. Isn't that what counts?