Sound Check Recording Your Snare Drum with Kevin Suggs
posted by on March 20 at 11:38 AM
Engineer / producer, and veritable doctor of love, Kevin Suggs, is on Lineout today to talk about recording snare drums.
Kevin does freelance everywhere and is a staff engineer at Avast! Studio. He is also the in-studio live performance engineer at KEXP. Some bands he has worked with are Smoosh, Cat Power, Math & Physics Club, Transmissionary Six, and The Minus 5.
** Kevin will be monitoring this post, so if you have any questions, ask away. He says:
The Snare drum is usually the centerpiece of the drum sound. Most drummers are very attached to their favorite snare and even if borrowing a drum kit will bring their own snare. I like to have a few different ones on hand. It’s nice to change up the sounds for different songs.For the best possible recording, you should always start at the source. A well tuned drum that sounds great in the room is what you are looking for. Tune it before you put any mics on it. If the drum has a ring to it, you might put a little bit of tape on the head to calm it down. Don’t over do it, or you will start to choke the sound. A little bit of a ring isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Once the snare drum is mixed with the rest of the drums and instruments, it may not even be noticeable. Better to let it ring than choke the life from it.
As for mic selection, a Shure SM57 seems to be the most popular. It’s the choice of practically all the engineers I know and is my choice 100% of the time. I’ve tried others but always come back to it. I usually place the mic with the capsule (part where sound goes in) just above the rim of the drum pointing at the center of the head. Try and angle it away from the hi hat as much as you can because hi hat always tends to get into everything. If you have the mics and tracks to spare you can also put a mic on the bottom of the drum. Put it real close, aiming it right at the snares themselves. The bottom mic is good for more high end. You’ll need to listen to these two mics together and check the phase.Phase - When placing more than one mic on any source, phase cancellation can occur. This is the result of the sound reaching the mics at different times. When it happens, loss of low end is usually what happens. Phase cancellation can be corrected by either moving the mics further or closer to the source. Or most mic preamps have a button that will swap the phase. Mixing boards also have a phase swap on each channel for changing phase after the signal has been recorded. The sign for phase is a 0 with a / through it.
Since the snare drum is only one part of the drum kit, you also need to take into consideration what other mics will be picking it up. The over heads will make a big difference in the sound (the two mics placed left and right above the cymbals). When I’m getting drum sounds, the overheads are the first things I pull up. They affect every drum in the kit. I leave them up while I work on the snare. I might solo the snare to hear what it’s doing, but ultimately it will be added to the over heads so that is the more realistic way to listen to it Phase again is important here. Making sure the snare mic is in phase with the over heads will give the snare much more body.
Once you begin tracking be sure to listen for detuning of the drum. After many takes the drum may slip out of tune much the same way that a guitar does.
What do you do if your snare drum accidentally italicizes all of line out?
I hate it when the snare does that.
I think there is a plug in to correct that.
What kind of mics do you use for the over heads?
What was it like recording Chan from Cat Power? Where did you do that? That's Dave Grohl on drums, right? I think I read they did the drums in a seperate session.
I don't know how to tune my drums.
How do I learn? Any good DVDs or books?
Thank you kindly.
Mr Suggs, thank you for making yourself available in this ingenious line out post. This has nothing to do with the snare drum, but I would LOVE to hear more about working with Chan! Was she nice? How long did it take to finish You Are Free? TX!
Kevin, who was your favorite SXSW band?
And who have been some of your KEXP highlights?
And my drummer keeps blaming my mic "technique" for the shitty sound. But he sucks. Given, the drums sound like cardboard, and we have no good gear. how do I break it to him that he is terrible and it's not the gear?
Pico, I recommend anything Curious George. It's a little vague, but for some reason when I need to tune drums, Curious George or Green Eggs & Ham always help.
Kevin, I'm about to get a new snare drum. I have $200 to spend. What should i get? Where should I get it. I was going to get it at Trading Musician. But they treated me like a huge dick, so I'm not getting it there anymore.
For overheads I usually reach for something of the condenser mic variety. They usually treat the cymbals better. Something like an AKG 414, or 451. Tube mics sound great too if ya got em.
If your drummer sucks your chances of getting a good drum sound suck as well. You always need to start at the source. Crap in equals crap out. Your on your own as for a good way to tell him. You could always bring in a good drummer and let him hear what that sounds like on the same gear.
As for tuning drums. I don't know of any books but there are plenty of other drummers around that I'm sure would be willing to give you some tips.
Working with Chan Marshall was a very good time. She is crazy but in a very ,very good way. We did most of that record at AVAST! It was just her and I for most of the time. I set up a bunch of mics and let her bounce off the walls with ideas. Eddie Vedder came by twice. Dave Grohl's drums had already been tracked at his place so I didn't have much to do with those. There was one spot where he went to a ride cymbal in the chorus of a song and Chan didn't like it so she asked me to take that part from the second chorus and fly it in. So here I has editing the crap outta Dave Grohl's drums thinking I was surely going to hell for it.
I spent about two weeks with her. She went away for a while and then came back for a little mixing. The record was done at a few different studios. There where a couple other engineers involved as well. None of us got any credit for our work I might add. That sucked.
My favorite SXSW band would have to be the Stooges. That band the Holloways was good too.
My KEXP highlights are usually the bands that I have never heard of that come in and blow me away. It happens all the time. With the big name acts I know what to expect.
Wait, why didn't you all get credit? How could they not credit you. That album is amazing. One of my favorites of all time.
Who's Dave Grohl? (kidding)
Hey Lance,
I'm not a drummer so have never bought a drum. $200 doesn’t seem like much but I've played $200 guitars that rock so I imagine if you look around you can find something nice. It probably comes down to just playing a lot of drums in your price range and finding one that sounds right to you.
I hear that a lot about Trading Musician.
How do I know for sure it is a phase problem I'm having?
I hit the phase button, but it makes it worse. I have a d112 on the kick, a 57 over the rim of the snare and then 2 more 57's about 6 feet out from the over heads. I try moving them closer but I lose the room sound I like. I know I need to play with the placement more.
Could you call Grohl and get him to play for me?
I have no idea why my name was left off the record. Or the names of a few other guys that worked on it as well. Not sure who's responsibility it was to keep that info together. Chan is maybe a bit to scattered so I figure it was the guy who was "producing". He took all the credit. It used to piss me off , but I know what I did and take credit for it. Sure would have been nice to open up the record and see my name there where it belonged. That has never ,ever happened to me before. Guys like me don't make tons of money. We make a living by staying busy and most of our business comes from word of mouth. Having my name on that record would have been worth more to me than I made doing the record.
If you hit the phase button and it sounds worse then they are already in phase. I would concentrate on the overheads and Kick and Snare mics before bringing in the rooms.
If you are using stereo micing and the two mics are out of phase it will be easy to tell. With the mics paned hard left and right push one of the phase buttons while you are listening to the signal. If they are out of phase the stereo field will get much wider and your ears will feel like they are spinning. It's hard to describe but it sounds really strange.
Thank you Kevin. Very cool. I will try the hard panning, although your description of being out of phase sounds right on. I want my field to get wide and my ears to spin.
And very cool to have you on this post.
Kevin,
Shitty that you did not get credit on that record... not cool! Haven't worked with too many "producers" but I think the guy at the controls has as much or more to do with the quality of a record than that guy.
Now for the most important, and most irrelevant question to the thread: When is Evangeline playing out again?!?
I put a little piece of tape on my head, and it won't calm down. I choke it too. This is great. What else should I do?
Hey Rick, thanks for asking. I thought we'd been forgotten. Evangeline is hard at work on another record. We hope to be giging again come summer time.
I'm not going to touch that one. Get creative.
I meant to ask this before- who do you think makes the best snare drum?
I know there are so many different kinds. Off the top of your head though, which is the Suggs most trusted?
What did Grohl play for the Cat Power session?
And who is a better drummer- Grohl or the Smoosh girl?
Buttons, Drummerlance, etc..
Gotta plug Aaron Mlasko, local drum maker who builds seriously whup-ass drums. I have a couple of his snares, and love them. Have recorded with them and gotten good sounds.
http://www.mlaskodrums.com/
But.. they're both wood snares, and I've been wanting a metal snare for a while, and don't really have a clue, not having owned one in years. So much of it is how you tune 'em... my buddy has a pretty stock Pearl snare and it sounds amazing... no idea why.
Aaron also does drum tech work, so if you have a recording session and feel you can afford to pay a guy for the day, he'll make yer kit sounds good. I've used him in that capacity a couple times. Been playing 20 years, and I still think it's a mystery, tuning a snare just right to sound great in the studio... and sometimes it's worth paying someone with tons of experience to handle that part, so you can just worry about they playing.
What if my out of phase is out of phase? And there is one of those yappy toy poodle dogs next door to where I live that won't shut up. Where's the button for that? Because I'd love to choke that little f'ing thing.
Right on, Rick. That guy looks like he's the man. I checked it out. Thanks. I'll take one of each.
Suggs is a Jedi.
The usual names like Ludwig and Slingerland always come to mind. There is a guy in town named Greg Kepplinger that makes some of the coolest snare drums around.
I didn't record Grohl's drums for Cat Power so I don't know what he uses.
Grohl is good but Chloe from Smoosh is gaining on him fast. He'd better lay off the guitar and get back on the skins if he wants to keep up.
Yes, Aaron Mlasko is definitely the man. I've recorded his drums and had him tech for me lots. Great sounds.
Some of the newer recording consoles have the poodle eject function built right in. Great feature.
How bout the "Guitar Player's Ego - Off" button?
Kevin, your part in the Musician's Guide Recording section was great.
I think the "Guitar Player's Ego - Off" button is called Jack Daniels, isn't it?
Ah yes, the guitar player ego button. I turn that one off and break off the knob right away.
Thanks.
In my band, we call that button - Budweiser.
ThorNton Creek had the pleasure of recording with Kevin last year at Avast, and it was a great experience all around. He made it easy to work quickly; we tracked and overdubbed 14 songs in two weekend days and one Wednesday evening. And he was very gentle with my fragile guitar player ego.
Thanks, Kevin.
Hey Don, good to hear from ya. Yes, that was a good time. We did it in the big room (studio A) at the new AVAST! in Ballard. I set them all up in a circle and let em go. Got everything live except for a few backup vocals and a guitar solo. Oh yeah, and a banjo.
Comments Closed
In order to combat spam, we are no longer accepting comments on this post (or any post more than 14 days old).