The Stranger accepts ad money from Camel.

Camel Sucks

Um, duh. But that doesn't mean their practices aren't suspect.

Well if "evil" Tobacco companies help pay your rent it hardly makes you a champion for the case against tobacco companies.

Besides, hasn't Camel co-sponsored Stranger events? Correct me if I am wrong, but I know I am not.

That's like saying that I can't disapprove of the war in Iraq because I receive Social Security benefits. You can criticize the hand that feeds you just like you can criticize anything else.

oooh snap.

And we can criticize you for criticizing the hand that feeds you, Ari. And you can criticize us for criticizing you for criticizing Camel, and then we can criticize you for criticizing us for criticizing you for criticizing Camel. It's the awesome party that never ends.

But no, seriously, you should get rid of your socialism security benefits, and stop using ads for products and campaigns (meth) your paper doesn't agree with. It isn't a matter of being critical, it's a matter of having credibility for what you write.

since when does the stranger care about anything all-ages

Actually, by a bizarre stipulation in Ari's contract, her entire salary comes from the American Apparel ads. So, really, she's only not allowed to compain about cotton basics and prone, half-naked teenagers. Not that she ever would, of course...

Hmm...does she wear American Apparel underwear?

*shamelessly stolen from Friz

If it weren't for the ad in our paper, I would never have even known that this was a Camel-hosted show.

There are necessary evils in this life. Camel also sponsors 21+ club nights that don't really appeal to minors--I don't really have a problem with that. I used to smoke Camels, even.

The fact is, they aren't allowed to advertise to minors, but here, they've found a way to associate their brands with things that young people like (thereby gaining the attention of young people) while following the letter of the law. And people should be conscious of their activity.

ari, we love you for consistently biting the hand that feeds you.

We love Ari for her interviewing skills.

So who are you more pissed at? Camel? The bands for signing on to the show? The venue? Or your employer?

They are all equally guilty.

what's wrong with smokin cigs? I do it all the time and feel great.

Kudos for the story.. Instead of pointing fingers, hows about daring some pimping of the pimpees?

It would be extra cool if said bands were to make a statement at this show acknowledging that evil forces have made entry free of charge. Pictures of blackened lungs would be rad, when's the last time you've pics like that??

I agree it's product association but it's a stretch. There is no evidence or study anywhere, ever to support any theory that even the most blatant and direct advertising is effective.At all. Erpiod. Far less of a science, the machinery of your your Rube Goldbergesque, behind the back, no-look pass theory of marketing outlined here.

Way to spot the fnords, Ari.

They are required by law to put theiur logo and the surgeon generals warnign on the ad, other than that, there's no way for the kids to determine that they're favorite band is on big tobaccos dick.

The only people who will even come in contact with big tobacco (aside form the government mandated disclosure labels in the ads) are people of legal age in the venue who get apporached by the Camel girl.

That would make thiis the stupidest, most ineffective ad campaign to market to kids Camel's ever had.

Then why don't they use bands that grownups listen to instead? They have a large amount of cash, meaning they get to choose the bands they work with.

And the flyers and whatnot have a logo--it's for something called "The Farm" that purports to be "Free Range Music" and directs you to a website which I couldn't get to let me in--you have to verify your age but the web form is broken or something. If anyone can get in and wants to take screenshots of what's on the other side, I would really like to take a look. The URL is www.thefarmrocks.com and you can email me screenshots at aspool@thestranger.com.

Not to be a Camel apologist—I find their shit as tacky and evil as the next guy—but...

It doesn't follow that because a band plays all-ages shows their audience is mostly under 18. For one thing, all-ages includes 18-20 year olds, who are fair game, not to mention 18-80 year olds. Even if these bands are aggressively all-ages, even if they only play all-ages shows, it only means that they want people of all ages—under and over 18—to be able to come to see them. That a band frequently plays all-ages doesn't necessarily tell us anything about their audience.

Granted, I think you're probably right. Rock'n'roll is supposed to be youth culture, and I'm sure Camel have done their demographic research. But without any numbers here, all you've got is a hunch that these guys have a mostly all-ages draw (which doesn't necessarily mean an under 18 draw).

I see your point, but tobacco companies aren't allowed to cultivate all ages audiences, only audiences over 18. They are supposed to be specific about it.

I obviously don't have any hard data to back up the draw business yet, but I'm working on it. And I've been to These Arms shows before (even ones not at Vera or the Fire House, where they play often). They are absolutely full of young'uns, so I've at least got that kind of past visual confirmation.

"I see your point, but tobacco companies aren't allowed to cultivate all ages audiences, only audiences over 18."

Right, and this show is 21+, regardless of whatever the bands' audiences would look like at an all-ages show.

Could Camel not do an event with, say, the Arcade Fire because minors as well as adults like them, even if the event itself was restricted to adults?

It seems like, if anything, the under 21 crowd would just resent camel for throwing a party that they're not invited to...

dig this.

Cancer Rising was gonna be on a (apparently Camel-sponsored)show w/Kultur Shock(I believe) @ the Croc a couple years back- i was stoked, but days later the booker called me with the bad news.

Camel wouldn't let us play.

3 guesses why.

@24

Because you suck?

I think this was an excellent article. I've read stories about Camel sending bikini chicks to schools in 3rd world countries with free samples. I wouldn't doubt that they're doing that all!

I also agree with Eric that if it is ploy to lure all-ages, that it could backfire. Teens *love* to be indignant!

I'm also a little curious how much Ari will be allowed to continue to be able to raise these kinds of suspicions. (And I hope higher powers research these suspicions.)

I honestly don't care if Camel is slipping under the radar to sell smokes to kids.

We all know smoking kills.

All of us.

Really.

And from what I've witnessed, although slightly more impressionable, children are smarter than adults.

Chill.

As far as I can tell, Camel (and other cig sellers) have relationships of one sort or another with many bars and clubs, the Stranger, etc.

Of course they want to be perceived as cool and hip. That's pretty much the goal of anyone and everyone marketing a product in 2007.

Bars and clubs are places where smokers still hang out (even though they can't smoke in side anymore).

Smoking and drinking go together in many people's mind. It's not rocket science.

Believe it or not, promoting shows is not that lucrative. So any extra coin helps clubs to continue doing it. These shows also often end up paying the bands more than a regular unsponsored show. I imagine that's why the Stranger takes the Ads too. It would be hard to remain viable without them.

In other countries, government arts funding includes grants and subsidies for popular music. In our country they don't.

For example, on the Mint Records website I've seen things like this: "The New Pornographers would like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for its assistance in helping them to attend this year's SXSW Music Conference in Austin, Texas." I also seem to remember that the recording of Carl Newman's solo album was funded by a government grant.

Here, that process is privatized. Is it insidious? Yes. Does it effect the culture? Probably. How? Hard to say.

I wish we had a regional equivalent of CanCon for NW music, so that all commercial radio stations had to play a percentage of music created by people from the region. Maybe from a market perspective it's a bit artificial. But I think it would be good for the culture. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, there were more regional commercial hits. It's too bad that doesn't seem to happen so much anymore (except maybe down in Texas).

@ 25
high five. no slow pitch unmolested.

I'm not even going to get into this but everybody is a bit of a hypocrite (including me) at times. This show is 18+.

Having done LOTS of These Arms are Snakes show, I know for a fact, that their audience isn't all kids. There are a lot of adults that come to see their show. More 21+ than underage every single time.

Also, I didn't hear anybody bitch at all when we did Band of Horses and Dinosaur Jr. for free? That must have been O.K. because people REALLY wanted to see them.

Seems like there's bigger battles to fight, but that's just me...

What's really shit is that this is hardly even a blog entry about music. Just Stranger created controversy that's got a minor music connection. Can't the usual columns cover all of the page 6 crap?

@31 - And it's generated several times more comments than even a popular music-related Lineout thread, so what does that tell you?

Am I the only one that would feel a little gross playing a Camel-sponsored show, no matter who it was geared toward? Am I that out of touch? I suppose so.

It would have been pretty funny to see a Camel show featuring Cancer Rising, though. Maybe a guest appearance by MC Emphysema would've been in order.

I'm not trying to stick up for cigarette companies, but I do have a mildly strange anecdote:

A couple years ago, I wrote this little band bio thing for a mag insert that was sponsored by Kool. For some reason, Kool was incredibly explicit that no artists included in the insert were under the age of 25. They even went so far as to do background checks and talk directly with all the writers to ensure that. It seemed like a lot of work on their part! And in the end, everyone got paid like a dollar a word, which is some Rolling Stone shit.

Anyway... the reality is that these companies don't have to be sneaky or evil in order to advertise to "kids". We do all their work for them by standing out in front of bars, smoking, getting laid, and looking kooooooooooool.

"[T]his show, if it were a normal show and not sponsored by Camel, would probably be all ages, no matter what club it was at."

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. As if there aren't dozens of 21+ clubs in Seattle at which these same bands often perform. El Corazon? The Crocodile? The several Showboxes?

Let's edit for clarity *and* reality next time, ok?

All of those clubs have all ages shows and 21+ shows on a regular basis. The TDO is dead, my friend.

How many kids (teens, really) smoke because a cartoon animal tells them to? More to the point, how many WON'T because a cartoon animal DOESN'T tell them to?

Every young smoker I know knows exactly what the dangers are. They spit up phlegm every five minutes; it's not like they can ignore what they do to the body.

Brandon in #33 knows exactly why kids smoke. I'd add to that the sensuality of the act; the new and taboo mode of expression smoking offers; the proposition of a new communal activity...but not cartoon camels.

(Besides, everything has a logo...now that the camel is no more, there's still the exotic-looking script "CAMEL" on every box.)

Ari - aren't you even concerned that YOU put Camel Joe on your article. He is a cartoon and is ILLEGAL to place in any publication or website.

i'm adding to this thread WAY late in the game, but i figure it's worth throwing in my two cents considering that i was in one of the bands that played. let's get one thing clear: this whole situation with Camel is definitely shady business. it constitutes what i view as a pretty hefty compromise on my personal ethics. however, i was able to reconcile the decision to play the show on three counts: 1) anyone that attends an 18+ concert is more than capable of making informed decisions on their own. Most venues with booze have displays for cigarettes at the bar, even during all ages events, so this show didn't increase minors' exposure to tobacco advertising. in addition, i don't think patrons to the club view the bands' willingness to play a show as a vote of support for the clandestine sponsors. i don't particularly like playing LiveNation-owned venues, but in the rare circumstance where we do play one, i don't expect the audience to see it as an endorsement for media monoplies. 2) the shows are free, so the public is benefitting from what i consider to be an ineffective marketing tactic. 3) really, the big reason: being in a band ain't cheap. the money from this show allowed us to pay off some of our sizeable business debt. idealy, we'd go on tour and only play shows at cool nonprofit venues like Seattle's Vera Project. but gas costs $3.50 a gallon, and most towns don't have such artist-friendly places to play.

i completely understand Ari finding these shows distasteful. ultimately, my bigger concern is the possibility that these free events become the norm. we're already dealing with a new generation of music fans that believe music shouldn't cost anything. Ozzfest was free last year because of corporate sponsors. Universal has talked about making their entire catalog free online in exchange for having to sit through commercials during the downloading process. we're looking at an industry that's rapidly moving towards making music as cheap as possible for the consumer by creating revenue through advertising, thereby creating a stronger connection between bands and corporations. even most indie labels are finding more and more of their revenue coming through licensing songs to advertisers. that part of the equation does make me feel a little guilty for playing a free show. and if that scenario doesn't appeal to other people either, then i encourage everyone to actually buy music, and ideally not from iTunes or a big media chain. it may sound cliche, but go out and support your local record stores. buy bands' merch. and don't look for opportunities to get into shows for free. if music fans wanna keep corporate money out of their music, they have to do their part.