Merry Christmas Seattle.

Croc is the best club in town and this is gonna really wreck some weekends. As a kiddie growing up here I thought that was the coolest place in the world... Where is Jim gonna go?!?!?!?!?

We've got a streetcar to nowhere, aborted mass transit, and now one less club, the best one at that. Fewer and fewer bands are moving here to play music, and many are even moving AWAY to portland and elsewhere....

Let's step it up!!!!!

Its loss is sad, however. I do remember it being *the* spot around the turn of the millenium and before. I have many fond memories of that place.

Then again, I have fond memories of I-Spy, Gibson's, and Second Avenue Pizza as well.

That is total bullshit. There aren't so many decent clubs here that the loss of even one, particularly one as notable as the Croc, won't be felt acutely by thousands of people, including lots of local musicians.

–my new T-shirt

However, sometimes change is good. Things have been less than stable over there and this town is not wont for great rock clubs. The scene will go on.

Still, there's lot of amazing stuff going on and you can't really beat the scenery. Portland has a dirty river and a Mt. Rainer wannabe.

My grandma took me to the Crocodile in 1993 to get breakfast, and it completely blew my mind (I was 13). Much thanks to everyone who's worked there over the years, you made it one of my favorite venues.

The haters, regardless of reason, need to shut up and step off. It's hard as hell to run a live music venue, and to do it as well and for as long as the Crocodile did deserves nothing but respect.

I've seen so many great shows there over the years I can't count, but one stands out in my memory over the rest: Yoko Ono/IMA.

Prepare yourself, Seattle, for another long set of articles full of people expressing their sadness/anger at the disappearance of another great Seattle bar/cafe/venue, with ABSOLUTELY NO DICUSSION ON THE CAUSES, AND NO ATTEMPT TO TAKE ACTION WITH REMEDIES.

Those who love the Crocodile could easily pool together money and buy the place, making it a live music coop. It's been done. It does work. But it requires action. Put your money where your mouth is, or keep your mouth shut.

#4, the City does support a music venue, The Vera Project. It's not a 21+ place, but an all-ages place, which seems fitting for something City-supported.

There are already rumors of a co-op effort to buy it and keep it running. We'll see if it happens, but if it does, count me in for 50-100K (yeah exactly, money talks, bullshit walks). Problem is that the cost of Belltown land and property has gone through the roof in the last 10 years, so even if the money to buy it can be put together, the property taxes will be deadly and will only get worse.

RIP Rockcandy, Weathered Wall, Lake Union Pub, Storeroom, Uncle Rockys, Gibson, Kincora, Sit n Spin, Area 51 yadda yadda gabba gabba etc.

That's how shit happens, i'm sure something better will come out of it. IMO the Croc has been just milking it's name for the last 10 years with half-ass shows.

From a business perspective, we had three things going on here:

BAR - $$$. Seriously, this is not hard. Get a reliable staff, and this runs itself. The front door / security guys were alwasy cool at the Croc too, so this wasn't the problem.

KITCHEN - OK, traditionally margins on food sales are thin. This was probably a headache. This would probably have to go.

LIVE VENUE - I know a bit about the economics on this as well. And unless there was some bizarre guarantee given to some huge headliner years ago that didn't bring in the money and they are still paying on it, this is not a hugh money loss either. And the economics of this is in the hands of the bookers, not Doogan or any distant owner. I'm sure Pete et al knew what they were doing.

Let's interrupt the eulogies for a second and talk brass tacks. Can anyone confirm if:

1. Doogan owned the property? Or just the business, and she leased?
2. Has a sale of the business / property occured, or just a closing?

If Doogan leased, and the business is for sale, I am ready to be Person Zero. My wallet is on the table, if anyone else want to join in.

Obviously, this is all dependant on the typical process of opening up the Croc's books, looking under the hood, and seeing where the changes could occur to make a profitable enterprise. If profitability is possible, move forward. But I'm ready to start the process.

That said, there are special things that come up around each of these venues that don't move when a venue closed. Weathered Wall had Lemon Twist and The Surrealist Magic Theater, never seen anything like them anywhere since. Aerospace, had Spice and some amazing shows like Portishead that happened only because of the creativity of the Tasty folks. Lake Union Pub, etc, was the home of an important scene that seems to now be fleeing the city's core due to lack of small venues. The scene doesn't always just go on.

Thankfully we still have other great live venues, but this definitely leaves a big hole, especially in Belltown, especially for new bands.

But this is definitely a side effect of the Mayor's downtown development plan that seems to have no room in it for live music. And props to the Croc staff and owners - it's an incredibly hard job to keep a love music venue open for more than 5 years with the changes that happen in the scene, etc. And it's never easy to close. There's always some lack of grace in that.

The bigg question is that if The Croc was the home of indie rock, is this (finally) the start of the end of indie rock?

http://www5.kingcounty.gov/reports/property_report.asp?PIN=0694000005

when was the last time buckmeister "hung out" there? Certainly not after the last Minus 5n show. That was a speedy gonzalazes exit, along with the other Venus in Furs (ahem, not that i was paying mind, sick sick sick voyuer i me mine). i really did mean to offer verbal cheers, but it must be a hectic bisiness for 'em - like outta there, whoooooosh!

There are lots of rumors and we'll all have to wait and see what's true (i.e. The Croc has a 10 year lease, it's on a month to month lease (the latter would attract no buyer), etc). There are probably a dozen groups of people thinking about making a pitch for the place this morning. But we have no clear idea how viable the business is. If it was viable, I doubt Stephanie would close so abruptly. The story of The Croc is probably similar to the one of Sit & Spin a few years ago (an owner burnt out on the business and no long term lease deal). Hopefully something or someone will come out of the blue and save this place, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There is probably a better chance of another venue starting somewhere else.

with all the money she was skimming, i hardly think she was losing money. but i'm sure she'll somehow seel the real reason why it closed so we'll never know.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/yourcourtstheirsecrets/2003241506_crocodile03.html

"There were several reasons why I left," he explains. "The first and foremost was--and this is strictly personal--I hated the town that Seattle had become. I just found myself getting up and loathing the city. Spending my day trying to deal with it and then going back at night to my little apartment and just loathing the city, you know. It's just... it was so grating to everything I cared about, considering the way that city used to be. It's become a city of assholes and whores."

'Tis Pity She's a Whore. The Disappearance of Art Chantry

That article went to press the month before I moved here. And thought he was just being pessimistic.

Art, you were right. 'Tis a pity she is still a whore.

to do list:
1) find bigfoot (previous dare circa 1997)
2) open a club

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sprizee/2118643078/

Likely answer: Somewhere in SF.

Howard D. Close is the taxpayer for the property, but may not be the owner.

Sometimes the owner's accountant or lawyer is the one listed on the property tax records because that's the way the owner wants it and the accountant or lawyer is the one who takes care of the property tax payments.

You would need to have a title search done to really be sure who the property owner is. But hey, kudos to you for checking those county records, it's can only help.

Event Cancellation Notice
The following event has been cancelled:

Sweet Water
12/31/07 9:00 PM PST
Crocodile Cafe

The tickets you purchased will be automatically refunded to the credit card used to make the purchase. Please allow up to five business days for the refund to post to your account.

Thank you for choosing TicketWeb.

Also thanks to everyone who had positive things to say in this comment box thingie. It is very very hard to run a concert venue (trust me, i've been doing the talent buying by myself since Pete left) and your support means a lot to me.

I also want to reiterate that the Croc's closure came as a TOTAL SURPRISE to everyone who worked there, myself included. I spent the last three weeks on my life work there 60+hours per week, frantically convincing agents/bands/promoters that it was okay to book shows there because I believed it was. Obviously if I knew we were going to close I wouldn't have been putting so much work into securing the Croc a solid spring schedule. I'd like to apologize to any band or agent or promoter who I inadvertently lied to in the past few weeks.

I feel really betrayed by the club's sudden closure. It was no mystery to anyone who cared that the Crocodile was losing money. But I really do feel that we had the right people in there, with the right attitude and that we were going to turn things around. I was very much looking forward to throwing myself into the job and doing everything in my power to assure that the Crocodile Cafe became the club that it deserved to be. I cared deeply about the place and everything it stood for. So to have the wool pulled over my eyes and the rug pulled out from under my feet is just insulting.

I'd also like to say that I got the VOICE MAIL about the Croc closing while I was Christmas shopping if only because it adds a delicious Dickensian twist to the story. Here's to hoping that the local music community shows up at my apartment tonight with a fat Christmas goose.

Oh! And if anyone has a lead on a job...I kinda need one...

@34 - if there is a club in town that can't rely on the cash flow complaint it's the croc. Mrs. & Mr. Buck aren't missing any meals.

Get over the nostalgia. Clubs come and go. Scenes change. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him on sight.

I just remembered the posters I just silkscreened last week for the Red Jacket Mine show that won't be happening January 4th . . . ah well.

If anyone wants to join forces on an "Unfuck the Crocodile Staff" benefit, let me know - that is a worthy cause if ever there was one.

And then Art Chantry convinces all the whores and assholes to move to Tacoma.
Thanks for that.

I am sad about the Crocodile. I don't think we should be blaming people until we know the whole story though.

There are a lot of people billing this as another nail in the coffin of the Seattle music scene. While # 67 got it totally right as far as downtown is concerned, In the 9 years since I moved here, off the top of my head the following venues have opened: Chop Suey opened (now booked by Pete from The Croc) Nectar opened, The High Dive took over for whatever that lousy place was before it, and Aro Space was renovated and became Neumos. I'm hopeful that especially since Pete is over at Chop Suey now, that they will fill some of the void.

I wish they'd open the doors for a night just so we could have a wake. What a lousy way to go out.

But, honestly, I'm not expecting to get my last paycheck without a fight.

Things change, businesses die. There are a million things I miss all the time.

Sit 'n Spin, Longshoreman's Daughter, Backdoor Ultralounge (when they had all the shit hanging from the walls), Bus Stop, etc, etc. All one of a kind, unique places I used to love going to are gone.

And yes, businesses come and go, but truly great places become institutions. And that doesn't happen by accident or through attrition. It happens because of hard work, passion and sacrifice. Something Seattle seems to coming up short on in many respects. (Excluding Vera.)

I can't help but think of The Casbah in San Diego. For such a shitty city (culturally), it's a damn fine place to drink and see a show. And it's still there after all these years. I suppose being under the airport's flight path has it's advantages. Hear that Georgetown?

"Still, there's lot of amazing stuff going on and you can't really beat the scenery. Portland has a dirty river and a Mt. Rainer wannabe."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Right. There must be a reason all your artists are moving down the road a bit. Maybe it's the dirty river.

By all means, though, keep telling yourself that. Just do it in Seattle, and don't fuck up what we have by coming down here.

Jealous much?

One more thing to add: things are spreading out to the neighborhoods people can afford to live and have independent businesses in. The rise of music venues in Ballard, Georgetown, Fremont, West Seattle etc supports this trend. You can still enjoy the thriving local music scene, you just need to keep that bus transfer

Mudhoney/Nirvana (secret show)
Death Cab probably 10 times.
Western State/Long Winters
Modest Mouse (well, not a great show, but...still...)
50 more...

Oh well. C'est la vie.

oh and are music scene must not be that bad if your on our city's blog.....

I have played the Crocodile more times than I can count over the years and while the venue may be history, we all need to try and help the staff transition.

No one venue holds the keys to our community, it is the group of people that stand on the stages, the audiences that come to see them and the people that work behind the scenes to make it all happen that make this scene great.

Ben London

Both cities are rad. And if creative Seattleites want to move to your town why would you discourage that? I've met and connected with tons of Portland musicians and none have the attitude that you have. Everyone of them has commiserated with our difficulties finding affordable housing and a supportive community of other musicians.

Why are you such a bummer? Did Paul Allen run over your dog?

-frank

Seattle is losing all its old unique places...speakeasy, sit n spin, rkcndy, now croc cafe.

1. Stephanie(Crocodile Owner) does NOT own the Sound equipment, Jim Does). It would be unfair to Jim to take the value of his equipment and add it to the Value of what Stephanie might be selling the club for.

2. The Liquor License is in Peter Bucks Name NOT Stephanie Dorgans name so If anyone is interested in purchasing the club for a fair price, Take both of those pieces of info under consideration and don't get screwed like many of the employees did.
We would hate to have any further "surprises" catch anybody else off guard when it comes to issues regarding the current and future situation of the Crocodile, especially right before the holidays.
We love you former Crocodile Employees.

a few thoughts:

you can demonize stephanie (and i'm not going to defend how this went down for a second) but she's not a bad person. she has always been exceptionally great to me and i don't think it's fair to lash out at people you don't know or have first-hand experience with. the reason why the croc thrived for years was because she employed some spectacular people (christine, constance, val and kevin, in particular) who she trusted enough to do their job - and who did their jobs spectacularly.

unfortunately, the croc never really recovered from christine, constance and val leaving - or kevin not being there regularly at shows.

the crocodile was an institution because we all had a relationship with the staff (JIM, babe, theodore, eddie, amber, becky, stacy, fred, etc) in a way that doesn't exist under normal circumstances.

and with all due respect to latter-day staff, that connection never really clicked. not in the same way.

it's insanely moving to see the demise of a venue affect people like this. it's a tribute to the community that was created and forged there - the community i hope will either find another location (comet? sunset?) or reclaim the croc.

as for portland - don't get me started. two-plus years of living there and experiencing what's happening first-hand and i can tell you with no sense of hesitation that while there might be a lot of creativity (and cheaper rents) it doesn't hold a candle to seattle in terms of having an interconnected and supportive music community.

contradict me if you dare!

New venues that spring up all the time. New buildings can be great places for a venue because the sound proofing is better and there is modern electric wiring. Better, if you can get in on the ground floor, you can have a say in how the thing is designed to optimize for loud music.

That said... I'll miss the crocodile. Hopefully the creative people who were working there can start up the next big venue...

my favorite memory was at a gas huffer/smugglers show 10 years ago or so. smugglers (a great band from vancouver BC - RIP) were on stage but i had to piss to i went to the bathroom. while standing at the urinal 3-4 jarheads fresh off the boat came in and this is what i overheard-

jarhead 1 - "should we mosh to these guys"
jarhead 2 - "naw, they're from canada"

Fair enough. Now that I read your comment again, "Portland has a dirty river and a Mt. Rainer wannabe." is obviously a compliment.

Silly me!

i've been to the croc countless times this year... all great shows. jason lytle, handsome furs, battles, just to name a few.

and man - that colorful stained glass wall makes me weak in the knees...

P.S. That Flickr picture isn't too far fetched. However, instead of a Quiznos, Subway, nail shop or Starbucks going in, maybe just keep the Croc there and build around it. After reading all of the comments, I find myself wishing the best for Jim, Eli and the rest of the staff of the Croc. Really, someone should throw a benefit for the staff. It's terrible the way that they were treated in all of this...

I'll pay $5 to see a band I don't even like play in front of the entrance to any of these awful new condos.

but I've snagged three of their displaced bands, (Danielli, Megasapien, and another in the works) for my first show booking for my new Re-bar night, Teatro Con Carne on January 17th (tickets are only $5; show starts at 11pm)so that's good news...

wow, that was a shameless plug.

I'll be happy to throw a brick through the windows of whatever overpriced shops they errect over the Croc.

1. Horrible sound and a mystifyingly nonechalant attitude about it. I have actually seen a soundman fall asleep while the headlining artist has having a microphone disaster.

2. Staff that range from unhelpful to downright asinine.

3. Shows populated by the same crusty, aging, garage-rock scenesters -- and no one else. National and international touring bands who would draw hundreds of actual music fans at any other venue would play the Croc and there would be an embarrassingly tiny audience of these "hey do you remember that Brendan Canty show in 1997?" idiots.

Apparently I wasn't the only one who learned to avoid the Croc like the plague.

Good riddance.

The Croc has been a good place. I'm amazed so many people are willing to blame SD for its demise and so few to thank her for its existence.

Of course the loss of any good club will be felt, and no denying the Croc was often one of the best, but time moves on, and clubs come and go. The Croc was one of the longest-lived, but it's not like there are no good venues left in Seattle, or like the people who booked shows at the Croc over the years are all suddenly going to leave Seattle.

So instead of bitching, either DIY or haul out to Ballard to see good shows at the Tractor or the Sunset. Not that those are the only good venues in town, but they are probably going to pick up some of the slack left by the absence of the Croc. Or maybe we'll get lucky and this will light a fire under Chop Suey to meet that standard.

Pretty fucking weak.

Many of us established life-long freindships, partnerships (like the time Dan Savage married seven couples in the bar's makeshift wedding chapel on Valentines Day 1995!) and the like at the Croc; its memories are an idelable part of our life. I toast all the characters who helped make it so special; the bands, the patrons and the staff. Hopefully a wake of some sort will be arranged soon.

Peter "English" Verbrugge

"did you copy that... over?"

The end.

Peter Buck doesn't have anything to do with the Croc apart from the fact that he used to be married to its owner.

Has anyone thought that the trauma of having to shut down a business you've owned for 16+ years might put you in a headspace where you're not acting rationally? Again - not defending the way things went down. AT ALL. Just saying that there's more than one side to consider.

And a lot of history.

For all the negativity being poured out, the Croc wouldn't have existed for this long if it hadn't been a place that attracted great people who worked for Stephanie. Who poured their heart and soul and their own blood, sweat and tears into making something happen there. Who helped create something that meant enough (positively or negatively, apparently) for all of us to be continuing to comment.

No one is perfect, and anyone who's worked for someone (or been friends with them, or is related to them, etc.) is going to have something to say.

I just find it interesting that the people who are the most negative are the ones who don't know Stephanie. And the ones who have come to her defense are the ones who do.

Again - I find it shocking/disheartening/disappointing that things transpired the way they did.

I just think that if you're going to post something, you might want to think about it before you hit 'send'...

Peter Buck doesn't have anything to do with the Croc apart from the fact that he used to be married to its owner.

Has anyone thought that the trauma of having to shut down a business you've owned for 16+ years might put you in a headspace where you're not acting rationally? Again - not defending the way things went down. AT ALL. Just saying that there's more than one side to consider.

And a lot of history.

For all the negativity being poured out, the Croc wouldn't have existed for this long if it hadn't been a place that attracted great people who worked for Stephanie. Who poured their heart and soul and their own blood, sweat and tears into making something happen there. Who helped create something that meant enough (positively or negatively, apparently) for all of us to be continuing to comment.

No one is perfect, and anyone who's worked for someone (or been friends with them, or is related to them, etc.) is going to have something to say.

I just find it interesting that the people who are the most negative are the ones who don't know Stephanie. And the ones who have come to her defense are the ones who do.

Again - I find it shocking/disheartening/disappointing that things transpired the way they did.

I just think that if you're going to post something, you might want to think about it before you hit 'send'...

send!

People close to me often say I should write a book about my horrifying experiences in her employ, but public tell-alls betray the trust implied and necessary for hiring and working within a home (Plus, who wants to write such sad stuff?).

Beyond being glad that she would have no further impact on my life, I walked away thinking that while there is good and bad in all of us Stephanie's good parts are at *best* misdirected.

I love and feel for her daughters... both of whom I think of more often than they know. I hope Stephanie uses her newfound time to get to know them in earnest, they are the most valuable things in her life.