you can't fuck with the drum programming on 'in the air tonight'.

However, to prove you wrong Trent, I present to you probably one of the best songs in the world.

"I'm gonna make it right, tonight, tonight, toniiight, aaaaahhhhhooooooo."

"...Genesis are a sham, a slap in the face to the world of music, and the world at large. People paying whatever the ridiculous ticket costs were for their 2007 concerts, and the $11 glasses of white wine once inside, and the $35 t-shirt, well, they might as well cut open the hull of an oil tanker or elect Bush for a 3rd term."

The costs of the ticket, the beverages or the t-shirt have no impact on the environment, or the American political landscape. But your attempt to establish a link does lend further credence to the theory that your writings are fueled by...crack. I'd say from your viewpoint the problem with the pricing for the Genesis concert was that it was far too cheap, since hordes of your parents' friends still attended.

It doesn't matter how many Disney soundtracks Phil Collins contributes to, or bad Zep reunions he shambles through, or whatever 80's trivia you're compelled to dig up--when it comes to explaining their ticket sales and prices. Your argument (and I use the term loosely) that Phil is an "asshat" and that Genesis is really uncool and so on may explain why hipsters don't obsess over 5.1 remixes of "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway", but has nothing to do with the entirely unsurprising box-office business they did recently. Like I said, decades of records, a period of huge hits, a fan-base with money and leisure time and market forces add up to a no-brainer of tons of money made.

I'm sure that in twenty years, some kid will be rewriting your sentiments except in regards to Soundgarden or Radiohead or some other equally undeserving target of your muddle-headed fury.

In fact, Collins made an entire career out of distilling the complex, off-putting experiments of his bandmates' prog-rock ventures into digestible pop singles.

In his day Collins' drum chops were unimpeachable, but his career arc is a case study in dumbing down ideas to reach a wider audience. I can't actually fault him for wanting to get paid, but I sure as hell ain't gonna listen to Against All Odds if I don't have to.

phil flew from london to philly on the concord the day of live aid, after playing at the london show. he may have been a wee bit jet lagged and didn't have time to rehearse. anyway, it wasn't that bad a set. the audience went apeshit.

And I think it was you, Tiktok, who brought up the 80's first, talking about "big big 80's hits". Then you fault Trent for bringing up the 80's?

I agree with Trent, everyone who saw Genesis in 2007 smoked crack.

You don't think Phil could have changed his schedule around to fit in a rehearsal to play with Led Zeppelin at a show like that Live Aid concert? It's a joke he didn't rehearse. Especially in light of the fact that he's the one that asked them if he could sit in.

I don't care how big Phil Collins was at the time. It's Led fucking Zeppelin and it's Live Aid, you find a way to fit a rehearsal in.

You two seem to know about as much regarding drum machines as Mr. Moorman does about.....well, any and everything, from the sound of it.

The funniest thing about oh-so-cool "indie" types like you and Mr. Moorman who go on their little "anit-establushment" foot-stompings is that you're too stupid to just say "I don't like this", and leave it at that. Instead, you keep dribbling out your feeble, twisted little mewls, esposing the fact that you're not qualified to discuss much to begin with.

Asshats, indeed.

Missed it the first time - but it sort of proves the point of my second post (apologies for the typos in there.)

Don't argue drum machines - or Phil Collins - with me, my son. You will lose. Badly.

Oh, and you might try laying off the douche sauce.

Tell us, Mighty Wowza, who are the many many major musicians to use the 808 before Collins. I'm curious.

I love 808 and 909's. Absolutely. Did I say I didn't?

I likes me some Can and Shuggie Otis for early drum machine users. But I can't tell you the exact type and spec and model number, so I'm sure will jump down my throat.

There's a guy I have been talking with and studying named Dave Holden who is from right here in Seattle. His father brought a lot of jazz to the NW from Chicago. Dave toured with James Brown on the Chitlin Circuit in '60 and '61. He's got amazing stories of touring with JB and what it was like as a black man touring the south during that time. He's pretty much my hero.

He also messed with drum machines and modified a keyboard similar to that of the keytar back in the early to mid 70's. Dude was way ahead of his time.

"Big, big 80's hits" are completely relevant when explaining Genesis' huge concert gross on the last tour. The aesthetic appeal of said hits to today's 20-somethings has none. Mr. Moorman's spluttering over how such an uncool band could make so much money today suggests a complete and willful ignorance of the trend in concert grosses for the last twenty years: Classic Rock and Boomer music is Major Bank.

No band's hip-factor is unassailable over time. There was a time when Zeppelin were laughably dated, and now they're an institution. Radiohead and Soundgarden will be regarded as overrated crap by some future writer who's in elementary school right now, just because they're so highly regarded by earlier generations.

You are right, you can't argue with 57 Million.

Genesis aren't my thing, I had some fun with it. Spluttering, hell yeah. Genesis did some of that too in my opinion. (And made millions.)

When was Zeppelin ever outdated?

And thank you for thinking I'm a hipster.

1. Bash Phil Collins - check
2. Mention Can and Shuggie Otis - check
3. Completely start to drift from original point of post - which was the devastatingly penetrating and "edgy" declaration of "I don't like Phil Collins and Genesis".

I would never jump down someone's throat for not knowing the model number of a drum machine. Nor would I jump down someone's throat for having an opinion. Though for trying to pass oneself off as some kind of "writer", I might certainly point and laugh.

Look! Tee hee.

By the way - go track down a copy of Robin Gibb's "Saved By The Bell" for your collection. That'll make you look cool as hell at the next dinner party you host. And I know that means the world to you.

For Scott and TR-505 : "In The Air Tonight" was recorded in 1980 (possibly demoed as early as '79.) The TR-505 was introduced in 1986. So, uh, yeah - my ignorant self stands "corrected" on that one, I suppose...

And Paulus - if there was supposed to be some cogent point there - please try again. Your call did not go through.

Just checked for spelling errors. Hope I didn't miss one. I would so hate to look stupid in this fine company...

I wasn't trying to make any sort of point. It was an honest request. Your in-depth knowledge of arcane drum machinery leads me to believe you are drummer, or at least a musician of some sort. That coupled with your hostile defense of Phil Collins piqued my curiosity as to what sort of music you might make.

I'm genuinely curious. That is all.

You can check out some of my shit here.

(bonus points if you can name the drum machine used on my version of "Shake it Up")

you lil hipster boys are so CUTE when you're mad (chucks Bens's cheek)!

no honey, there was no time for a rehearsal. live aid was thrown together rather quickly. and so what? you're getting yer balls in a knot over NOTHING.

- Tell people you know a drum machine type, but not really know it - check

- Think it is 'indie hipster' to like Can and Shuggie Otis - check

- Jump down people's throats, then say you would never jump down someone's throat - check

- Get pissed about gear and Phil Collins - check

- Sound like an utter and complete asshole - check

I would not consider myself a "musician" per se, though I am capable of being such on occasion. My knowledge of things mainly comes from being an avid (and attentive) fan, listener and seeker of information. I also have this really weird, quaint, outdated habit of preferring to know something (and possibly to actually have something of worth to say) about a topic before I talk about it.

I'm also not coming to the "hostile defense" of Phil Collins. If Trent "I Would Suck Jimmy Page's Drunk Cock" Moorman would like to bash away at him, bully for him. I would term it more as annoyed head shake at people who can't quite grasp the concept of that little habit of mine I just mentioned.

And I'm sorry I can't identify your drum machine, but as I also mentioned above, the quality is of such a type that I find it hard to distinguish much of anything (except perhaps a wheezy Magnus chord organ, or some relative of same.) That Johnston-esque lo-fi bag is not one I partake in. Like, I'm sorry.

Wait a minute.

"Pradalover".

Ummm - never mind. Barely seems worth it.

Also, nailed the Magnus.

There are other recordings of varying fidelity on the page. You might enjoy some of them.

Yes, well - I thought I'd made this clear from the outset.

@41 - Zeppelin means very little to me to begin with, so I don't really know (or care). But it was also a one-off live gig. Shit happens. Daltrey blew the entire middle eight of "Won't Get Fooled Again" that day, but it was still great. Because he's Roger Daltrey (if I may invoke the Moorman principle here.)

@42 - Listen - you know I love you. But I just cant take this.

Oh, and also - if you ever want to hear the finest example of a drummer who combined an 808 with real kit playing (and who was doing it, spectacularly, in 1981) - the man you want is Yukihiro Takahashi.

You're welcome.

Explain this sentence.

Another notable LP PC was on in that period was Fripp's Exposure.

And Wyatt is on Before And After Science, too. "Shirley Williams" is him.