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Tuesday, October 13, 2009
Shit Talk / Politics "Because You Think that Poor is Cool"
Posted by Eric Grandy on Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:18 PM
C'mon, guys, it's as dumb to dismiss music based solely on the perceived privileged class of the artist as it is to fetishize poverty as the only true means to artistic authenticity. I'm decidedly working class—I have as much class antipathy as the next guy—I've never been to, let alone "summered at" Cape Cod, and yet, I can appreciate the Vampire Weekend song "Walcott," because it expresses a pretty universal feeling ("don't you wanna get out?") despite it's specific cultural signifiers ("out of Cape Cod tonight?"). See how that works? Hate Vampire Weekend—I don't give a fuck—hate rich people, but doing the former on account of the latter is just lazy criticism.
1
A lot of jagged nerves on this topic...not really grasping the conflict as a thing about which to get emotional.
Investing a shitty band with these connotations of class or 'privilege v. poverty' is really an overwrought way of saying 'I do not fully understand the concept of of a non-egalitarian society.'
All you are arguing about, in essence, is consequence and access. Being relatively wealthy reduces the severity of consequences and increases likelihood of access. The more you have, the less likely it is that you will be held to account for indiscretions or violations of social conventions (laws and norms). The more you have, the more likely it is that you travel in circles with others of your same (or higher, as increased status reduces overall number of peers) socio-economic status, who are also more likely to have influence over positive opportunities and provide increased access to those opportunities.
These are graded relationships, obviously. There are also other methods to acquire both reduction of consequence (such as being related to a law enforcement officer) and access (such as being a committed community activist).
That crappy band has no impact on this dynamic.
Investing a shitty band with these connotations of class or 'privilege v. poverty' is really an overwrought way of saying 'I do not fully understand the concept of of a non-egalitarian society.'
All you are arguing about, in essence, is consequence and access. Being relatively wealthy reduces the severity of consequences and increases likelihood of access. The more you have, the less likely it is that you will be held to account for indiscretions or violations of social conventions (laws and norms). The more you have, the more likely it is that you travel in circles with others of your same (or higher, as increased status reduces overall number of peers) socio-economic status, who are also more likely to have influence over positive opportunities and provide increased access to those opportunities.
These are graded relationships, obviously. There are also other methods to acquire both reduction of consequence (such as being related to a law enforcement officer) and access (such as being a committed community activist).
That crappy band has no impact on this dynamic.
3
@1: The inequities of capitalism is a worthy subject, but it's not really what this post is about.
5
whats worse? lazy criticism or lazy journalism, Eric?
You are the music editor for a major city, do your job instead of moping over some Pitchfork band of the year.
You are the music editor for a major city, do your job instead of moping over some Pitchfork band of the year.
6
I'm not one to fetishize being poor or working class, but I can certainly understand how hearing a bunch of privileged young kids sing about being privileged young kids could insipire the listener to puke in their mouths a little bit.
8
They can sing about whatever they want, but it doesn't automatically mean that the listener automatically needs to think it's rad or shut off their opinion about it.
9
@8: So, you might enjoy "rich kids" making music but only so long as they don't sing about subjects/experiences that you deem too upper-crust? (But wouldn't it be even more odious to pretend, by such an omission, that privilege doesn't exist?)
10
Or to put it another way: Say that six months after you lose your job, your unemployment runs out in a couple of weeks, you've sent out 100 resumes and have yet to even receive a phone call.
"Wolcott" comes on KEXP and instead of thinking "Hey, wouldn't it be great if I could live like that," or "Hey, I wanna get out of the U-District tonight," you look down at your ramen and your stack of unpaid bills and then you look back at the radio and you think "You know what? Fuck these fucking assholes."
I think that's a perfectly reasonable reaction.
I know that's not what the anonymous commenter said towards you, but your argument reads like it's the listeners fault for not being able to identify with being from Cape Cod or going to an Ivy League school, your parents' socio-economic status be damned.
But put that aside: to be able to come out with these songs in today's economic climate is pretty ballsy. It's almost punk in its "Fuck You"-ness. I know that being upper-class Ivy Leage white-collar white males aren't the only lyrical themes that Vampire Weekend explores, but you know.
Too bad their jams are all lightweight sissy stuff.
"Wolcott" comes on KEXP and instead of thinking "Hey, wouldn't it be great if I could live like that," or "Hey, I wanna get out of the U-District tonight," you look down at your ramen and your stack of unpaid bills and then you look back at the radio and you think "You know what? Fuck these fucking assholes."
I think that's a perfectly reasonable reaction.
I know that's not what the anonymous commenter said towards you, but your argument reads like it's the listeners fault for not being able to identify with being from Cape Cod or going to an Ivy League school, your parents' socio-economic status be damned.
But put that aside: to be able to come out with these songs in today's economic climate is pretty ballsy. It's almost punk in its "Fuck You"-ness. I know that being upper-class Ivy Leage white-collar white males aren't the only lyrical themes that Vampire Weekend explores, but you know.
Too bad their jams are all lightweight sissy stuff.
11
Eric, I'm saying fewer people would consider Vampire Weekend's socio-economic background if they didn't write songs about it.
12
I'm so tired of this shit. I don't care what Eric G likes or what he thinks I would like. This whole" rich kid" argument doesn't mean poop either.
That's like saying Wes Anderson makes crappy movies because many of his characters are somewhat wealthy.
That's like saying Wes Anderson makes crappy movies because many of his characters are somewhat wealthy.
14
i dont dislike the band cause they are rich whiteboys that sing about being rich whiteboys using music styles that have been created by the non-white peasant class....i dislike the band cause they are corny and boring.
and i dislike grandy cause he is the latest in a huge line of people that, for some reason, feel compelled to defend rich whiteboys despite how good the songs are.
hmmmmm....
and i dislike grandy cause he is the latest in a huge line of people that, for some reason, feel compelled to defend rich whiteboys despite how good the songs are.
hmmmmm....
15
@2 -There is nothing subjective about the statement I made. I have been lucky enough to elevate myself from living in a tent and eating out of dumpsters. Not to suggest I am a 'self-made man,' as there was a lot of luck, coincidence and a great partner. I now have a good deal of resourses, and as I move up said economic ladder, I am infinitely more insulated from mistakes/bad luck. I also now have access to many people and opportunities I never could have imagined 10 years ago.
A person of means who does not recognize that they have privleges is a person who does not have a grounded world view.
That Strokes record was fine, but I can't believe Tom Petty didn't sue them for 'Last Night' ripping off 'American Girl'. I guess if they start writing songs about Swiss boarding schools we'll have to reassess.
A person of means who does not recognize that they have privleges is a person who does not have a grounded world view.
That Strokes record was fine, but I can't believe Tom Petty didn't sue them for 'Last Night' ripping off 'American Girl'. I guess if they start writing songs about Swiss boarding schools we'll have to reassess.
16
I thought that the standing gripe against Vampire Weekend, the one that got them noticed in the first place, the one that they self-referentially lifted a rhythm the Congo and mixed it with Cape Cod, was that they are posh kids who appropriate "poor" sounds and references in service of songs about their own first world problems. That is, the band itself is fetishizing poverty as a route to the perceived obstacles to authenticity that being rich(ish) affords them. Have their detractors gotten past that and moved on to just not liking them on purely economic grounds?
Because, really, once you rule out entertainment about the wealthy, you're cutting most of popular culture.
Because, really, once you rule out entertainment about the wealthy, you're cutting most of popular culture.
17
@10 - Yes, it's a perfectly reasonable reaction, if that's the context the listener chooses. There aren't any unreasonable reactions to music. Well, not counting the Manson Family's. But I don't think holding Eric to the fire because of the song's perceived socio-economic message addresses the intent of his original post, in which he clearly intended only to deal with aesthetic issues. He wasn't endorsing the lifestyles of the rich and famous, only detailing why (in his mind) the particular song works. It's fair to talk about the issues the song raised, but to project those issues into images of Eric lighting $100 bills on fire with his cigar, not accurate.
If a band wants to sing about fantasy getaways, that's fine if it works. I particularly like that AC/DC song about the guy who holds enormous social balls in his mansion. Reminds me of those parties at San Simeon. The ones where all the guests had giant testicles.
If a band wants to sing about fantasy getaways, that's fine if it works. I particularly like that AC/DC song about the guy who holds enormous social balls in his mansion. Reminds me of those parties at San Simeon. The ones where all the guests had giant testicles.
18
this is a pretty interesting topic if one can get past the petty shit-talking.
hats off to Vampire Weekend for bucking at least one trend: poor artists tend to glamorize wealth (look at the hip hop scene) while privileged artists tend to glamorize poverty (look at the punk scene). the boys in VW apparently never had to worry about money, and they have no qualms with flaunting it.
but i think it's fairly easy to understand why that would rub people the wrong way. being broke and poor is a big bummer, and big bummers tend to evoke very real and passionate art. being privileged from birth, by comparison, is a pretty asinine topic. VW are smart enough to not fall into the white boy guilt syndrome and assume an air of desperation, but they still felt the need to tie their pedestrian pop songs to an art form that DOES have an air of impoverished authenticity--afro pop. so while they're not denying their class, they are still tying their music to poverty in a very self-aware post-modern fashion. and ultimately, it boils down to whether or not that tactic is somehow more valid, or more smug and safe. it's a very collegiate tactic, i suppose. i'm personally not feeling it, though.
hats off to Vampire Weekend for bucking at least one trend: poor artists tend to glamorize wealth (look at the hip hop scene) while privileged artists tend to glamorize poverty (look at the punk scene). the boys in VW apparently never had to worry about money, and they have no qualms with flaunting it.
but i think it's fairly easy to understand why that would rub people the wrong way. being broke and poor is a big bummer, and big bummers tend to evoke very real and passionate art. being privileged from birth, by comparison, is a pretty asinine topic. VW are smart enough to not fall into the white boy guilt syndrome and assume an air of desperation, but they still felt the need to tie their pedestrian pop songs to an art form that DOES have an air of impoverished authenticity--afro pop. so while they're not denying their class, they are still tying their music to poverty in a very self-aware post-modern fashion. and ultimately, it boils down to whether or not that tactic is somehow more valid, or more smug and safe. it's a very collegiate tactic, i suppose. i'm personally not feeling it, though.
19
@18 - "Very collegiate tactic" - that's a perfect way of putting it. There's a studied nature to VW that I typically mistrust, though not always. Like what Ferran Adrià does with food.
Except I understand Adrià's food tastes pretty good. I should fly over there in my Lear and check it out.
Except I understand Adrià's food tastes pretty good. I should fly over there in my Lear and check it out.
20
@13: Really? The Strokes? Really? Barfff. But that's a subject for another time (like 2004.)
@17: I think you missed the point. The only thing that I was holding Eric to the fire about was him implying that people who don't like Vampire Weekend may not be entitled to their opinions. It's okay to hate Vampire Weekend, and it's okay to hate rich people, but it's not okay to hate Vampire Weekend because they're rich? That kind of logic makes little sense to me. I don't know where you got that I was accusing him of trying to light cigars with $100 bills. That's projecting a little. I can't imagine the Stranger Music Editor makes THAT much money.
It's hard to separate the socio-economic status from a band's aesthetic when said aesthetic is, ahem, based on their socio-economic status. When you reference Cape Cod and your Ivy League schools in multiple songs, and you pose for the cover of one of your singles on a goddamn yacht, you're pretty much tying the two things together. I mean, I would consider a band's lyrics and their graphic design to be two pretty big things that work towards defining their aesthetic.
@18 I haven't noticed any petty shit-talking in this thread, unless you're talking about the reliable semi-anonymous troll guys. I know Eric has to put up with a lot bullshit on this blog, some of it deserved, most of it not. If I have to be critical, I usually try to concentrate on the content and not his character. I met him once, we were both wasted, but he seems like a chill bro, silly haircut and all. (He's probably gotten a haircut or two since then.)
Everything else you bring up, I pretty much agree with.
Also, I have a lot of crazy theories about classism and indie-rock. But for another time.
Anyway.
Two things I thought of between when I left the house tonight and when I got back home and on the computer:
1.) Vampire Weekend: the white indie rock equivalent to rappers who rap about the cars and jewelery they own?
2.) I wonder if they're Teabaggers. It's certainly possible.
3.) I really don't give a fuck about Vampire Weekend, and I don't have it out for Grandy at all, but something about the tone and the reasoning behind this post kinda bugged me. That's all.
More...
@17: I think you missed the point. The only thing that I was holding Eric to the fire about was him implying that people who don't like Vampire Weekend may not be entitled to their opinions. It's okay to hate Vampire Weekend, and it's okay to hate rich people, but it's not okay to hate Vampire Weekend because they're rich? That kind of logic makes little sense to me. I don't know where you got that I was accusing him of trying to light cigars with $100 bills. That's projecting a little. I can't imagine the Stranger Music Editor makes THAT much money.
It's hard to separate the socio-economic status from a band's aesthetic when said aesthetic is, ahem, based on their socio-economic status. When you reference Cape Cod and your Ivy League schools in multiple songs, and you pose for the cover of one of your singles on a goddamn yacht, you're pretty much tying the two things together. I mean, I would consider a band's lyrics and their graphic design to be two pretty big things that work towards defining their aesthetic.
@18 I haven't noticed any petty shit-talking in this thread, unless you're talking about the reliable semi-anonymous troll guys. I know Eric has to put up with a lot bullshit on this blog, some of it deserved, most of it not. If I have to be critical, I usually try to concentrate on the content and not his character. I met him once, we were both wasted, but he seems like a chill bro, silly haircut and all. (He's probably gotten a haircut or two since then.)
Everything else you bring up, I pretty much agree with.
Also, I have a lot of crazy theories about classism and indie-rock. But for another time.
Anyway.
Two things I thought of between when I left the house tonight and when I got back home and on the computer:
1.) Vampire Weekend: the white indie rock equivalent to rappers who rap about the cars and jewelery they own?
2.) I wonder if they're Teabaggers. It's certainly possible.
3.) I really don't give a fuck about Vampire Weekend, and I don't have it out for Grandy at all, but something about the tone and the reasoning behind this post kinda bugged me. That's all.
21
i guess i hear what eric's saying, but demanding class not be an issue is kind of almost as unnecessary as making it a huge issue. and i'm not going to agree with any one commenter, but comment #10 rang true. what does any of this have to do with the song, though? there are plenty of reasons to be annoyed with VW, just like there are plenty of reasons to be annoyed with everything precious and just-so and proud of it. what can you say? some people just like it raw, and this isn't. VW is refined. anything less would be disingenuous. i like the song a lot.
23
It's an old boring argument, and I have never been one to fully give it any creedence, but goddammit it's rung true this last week. Eric really does just write about the same stuff over and over.
I stopped reading the stranger a long time ago because the direction the music writing has taken since Maerz left is not to my liking at all. In the last year I've come to lineout to get a quick digestable snap shot of what is being talked about now and then as it alleviates any guilt I once had about wasting paper on disappointment. I'm all for variety. I'm all for a mixed bag of opinions, and I'm only slightly begrudged that the stranger is no longer a publication I enjoy reading...
But goddammit, enough with vampire weekend already. Or at least condense it down to one post, not 4.
I'm going to take this soap box opportunity to commend Brian Cook on his Nomeansno article recently. That is a band with intersting lyrics that deserve discussion, and Brian is one of the only contributors left that still keep me coming back.
I stopped reading the stranger a long time ago because the direction the music writing has taken since Maerz left is not to my liking at all. In the last year I've come to lineout to get a quick digestable snap shot of what is being talked about now and then as it alleviates any guilt I once had about wasting paper on disappointment. I'm all for variety. I'm all for a mixed bag of opinions, and I'm only slightly begrudged that the stranger is no longer a publication I enjoy reading...
But goddammit, enough with vampire weekend already. Or at least condense it down to one post, not 4.
I'm going to take this soap box opportunity to commend Brian Cook on his Nomeansno article recently. That is a band with intersting lyrics that deserve discussion, and Brian is one of the only contributors left that still keep me coming back.
24
As a teenager I spent some time with these kids whose parents had a whole lot of money. They were friends of a friend from middle school whom I stayed in touch with after he enrolled in an expensive private high school and I went on to public. One of the guys we hung out with lived in a $4 million mansion on the Kirkland waterfront, complete with an extravagant bar and wine cellar and game rooms and spiral staircases and verandas, etc. Their lives were so lush and extravagant I wanted to spend as much time around them as I could, to try and share in their opulence. It was exhilarating, and addictive, experiencing such luxury as an impressionable teenager. I spent a few 4th of Julys with them, driving around in their fancy cars committing vandalism (this is what the rich kids loved doing most, vandalizing). They did whatever they wanted whenever they wanted, always in the nicest clothes, with the most expensive accessories. It didn't take much time for either side to realize that there was never going to be a real friendship between us. They tolerated me becasue we had a mutual friend, but we both knew that I was from a different caste. I was a working class kid who had summer jobs to get spending money. I bought my clothes at thrift stores (by choice). I drove an old dinged up Honda Civic. I went to hardcore shows and got all sweaty. I was never going to fit in with their rich kid aesthetic.
At the time I wished that they would have accepted me into their group - would have let me siphon more enjoyment from their riches - but as I got older I realized how shallow and vapid their lives actually were. It was all about appearance and status with them, and never about substance. They were actually pretty shitty dudes with a lot of problems, and their money wasn't going to make any of that better. Though it's speculation, and I haven't talked to those guys in a decade, I would bet anything that Vampire Weekend is one of their favorite bands. If it isn't now, it certainly would have been then. Rich kids fetishizing the status symbols of Ivy League educations and Cape Cod getaways; they talked about those things literally every time we hung out. Vampire Weekend is the soundtrack to the rich kid club that didn't want me, one I had to learn I didn't want either. As a food service working, dilapidated apartment renting twentysomething, I have no regrets that those rich kids didn't want to be my friend. I have no desire to have those people in my life. If I passed them on the street I probably wouldn't stop and chat. Likewise, I change the station when their band comes on the radio.
More...
At the time I wished that they would have accepted me into their group - would have let me siphon more enjoyment from their riches - but as I got older I realized how shallow and vapid their lives actually were. It was all about appearance and status with them, and never about substance. They were actually pretty shitty dudes with a lot of problems, and their money wasn't going to make any of that better. Though it's speculation, and I haven't talked to those guys in a decade, I would bet anything that Vampire Weekend is one of their favorite bands. If it isn't now, it certainly would have been then. Rich kids fetishizing the status symbols of Ivy League educations and Cape Cod getaways; they talked about those things literally every time we hung out. Vampire Weekend is the soundtrack to the rich kid club that didn't want me, one I had to learn I didn't want either. As a food service working, dilapidated apartment renting twentysomething, I have no regrets that those rich kids didn't want to be my friend. I have no desire to have those people in my life. If I passed them on the street I probably wouldn't stop and chat. Likewise, I change the station when their band comes on the radio.
25
Am I the only one who doesn't like Vampire Weekend because they are exceedingly derivative?
I like afropop reissues too. Somebody made an afropop cover album with supposed upper crust dumb shit talk smeared across it and other people liked it. Other people like 'Dancing with the Stars', no need to over analyze the reason - people like what they like, and sometimes it is cripplingly boring and obvious.
I like afropop reissues too. Somebody made an afropop cover album with supposed upper crust dumb shit talk smeared across it and other people liked it. Other people like 'Dancing with the Stars', no need to over analyze the reason - people like what they like, and sometimes it is cripplingly boring and obvious.
27
If we can top 100+ comments on how lame the Stranger is and how cripplingly boring Vampire Weekend are, maybe those things will actually come true!
28
I'm absolutely surprised that A. Anyone still cares about Vampire Weekend and B. That such a boring and derivative band has stimulated a conversation about the opportunities provided by wealth and class. But bravo Lineouters. Now if only V.W. took more of a Bret Easton Ellis approach to portraying the wealthy class it would be both more realistic and possibly interesting. Because, as Jeff Kirby points out above (and Ellis does through his books), the shallowness and vapidness of the upper crust in America often churns out a bunch of shitheads who really aren't to be emulated.
29
1.) But wealthier guys occasionally start labels or bands and give me a job promoting them.
2.) And then we get some good records "till the money's all gone" as Waits sang.
3.) And I probably want to listen to Paul Simon's "Graceland" more than most of the sludge crusty punks from rich families play through expensive gear.
4.) And so what do I know?
2.) And then we get some good records "till the money's all gone" as Waits sang.
3.) And I probably want to listen to Paul Simon's "Graceland" more than most of the sludge crusty punks from rich families play through expensive gear.
4.) And so what do I know?
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