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Joe Newton
I have a mentally disabled cousin who I haven't figured out how to help. He's lived for more than 40 years in the same nursing home in a small, conservative town. His mental age is about 8, there are other mental-illness issues, and he has some physical problems. He is now in his late 60s. He has always enjoyed dressing up as a woman, but given that he's in a Christian nursing home, he must keep it fairly secret. He doesn't want to move from his home of so many years. He periodically calls me to tell me about a dress he's purchased or his monthly therapy sessions where he's permitted to dress up, and I'm uncomfortable with the sexual vibe of the conversations. I would like him to have a sexual outlet, but one that doesn't involve me. Any ideas?
She Knows It's Really Tough
Nope.
And staging some sort of intervention now—well, the effort seems about four decades late. Even if you could find a new living situation for your cousin, SKIRT, your cousin doesn't want to move. He seems to like where he lives, he gets to buy himself dresses, and he gets to dress up once in a while. He'd probably be happier if he didn't have to keep his dresses secret, but things could be much, much worse.
I have a technical butt-plug question. I'm in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. We don't use protection except birth control. Is there any reason other than sexually-transmitted-infection issues—not an issue for us—that we shouldn't share a butt plug?
Sex Toys Are Pricey
Nope.
We're a straight couple, and my boyfriend and I love playing with his butt. I love being able to ride him when he has a butt plug in, but it always falls out during sex. Is there something we can do? Do we need a different toy?
Plug Leaves Us Guessing
What you need, PLUG, is a bigger butt plug. The circumference of the widest part of the butt plug (the part that goes in his ass) needs to be four or five times greater than the circumference of the narrow part of the butt plug (the part his sphincters grip). If the widest part of your butt plug isn't much wider than the narrow part, that butt plug will fly out of your boyfriend's ass every time. Bigger butt plugs look intimidating—especially for straight boys—but the extra physical and emotional effort required to get a bigger butt plug in a straight boy's ass... well, that shit pays off in the end.
My son is 13. After I caught him with porn on his smartphone, I replaced it with a dumb phone and limited his access to the internet at home. We have talked about desensitization and the oppression of women that occurs with porn. Yet the hormones rage on. He has asked me to buy him a Playboy. I need to play this right. I want him to come to me to talk about sex, but a mom buying her son porn doesn't seem okay. If I don't buy him a magazine, he will seek porn on the non-parent-regulated internet. If I do purchase porn for him, doesn't that just encourage him to walk the path of porn?
Baffled By Teenaged Boys
If your son wants old-fashioned, preinternet porn—do they still publish Playboy?—he can acquire it in the old-fashioned, preinternet manner: He can get his ass to a bodega or a convenience store or a truck stop and steal some porn mags. My brothers and I learned important life lessons shoplifting porn when we were your son's age: to be watchful, to seize opportunities, and to run like hell.
I am one of those straight girls who like to make out with other girls when I am drunk. It's fun to get the attention of men by kissing girls! What's so wrong with that? Why do so many lesbians and bi women disparage this behavior? I guess it could be said that my behavior encourages men to objectify women who kiss other women. But I feel like that shouldn't be on me! Why all the hate? I am just an adult having sexy fun with other consenting adults!
Drunk Straight Girl
I can't believe there are still queers out there hatin' on drunk straight girls (DSGs) who make out with other DSGs to attract the attention of drunk straight boys (DSBs). Same-sex marriage is making significant gains—hurray for Rhode Island, Delaware, Minnesota, Uruguay, France, and New Zealand—but it remains illegal in 38 states, Congress has yet to pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, the HIV-infection rate among young gay and bi men is up, and trans people who just want to use the toilet are being attacked in schools and state legislatures across the country. (Google "rape" and "public restroom," and tons of stories come up—but they're all about straight men attacking women. Want to make public restrooms safer? Ban straight men from using them.) The queer community has 99 problems—at least—but DSGs making out with DSGs ain't one.
I'm a female in my early 20s and have been seeing a really great guy for a few months. We've been having lots of awesome vanilla sex, but I dig light spanking. I have told him this, and he talks some hot dirty talk about what he's GOING to do to me, but there's no follow-through. This discomfort is linked to some abuse he witnessed—his stepdad hurt his mother. I like him and I'm happy to wait for him to ease into it slowly, but it's been at least a month since I last brought it up, and I'll go crazy if I don't get some kinky sex soon.
Missing My Kinks
Here's what you need to tell your boyfriend: "Vaginal intercourse without consent is rape, but vaginal intercourse with consent is sex. You can wrap your head around that, right? So you should be able to wrap your head around this: Spanking someone without consent is assault, but spanking someone with consent is sexy. And you're going to spank me right now, with my consent, and it's going to be hot."
Straight guy here. No sex question. I just want you to tell me what is up with two guys at my gym. The skinnier dude does all the grunt work—sets up the weights, puts them back, wipes down the equipment—while the bigger dude stands there. The skinnier one can't be the bigger dude's personal trainer. Yesterday when the bigger dude noticed his shoe was untied, he pointed to his shoe, and the skinnier dude knelt and tied his fucking shoe for him. What the hell?
Most Everyone At The Gym Is Freaked
What you've described sounds like a not-nearly-subtle-enough, semipublic Dom/sub muscle worship scene. But I could be wrong. So if you have to know for sure what's up, MEATGIF, you'll have ask the bigger dude. If it turns out these dudes are doing some sort of public Dom/sub scene, and the point is to humiliate the scrawnier dude, the bigger dude will be only too delighted to tell you about it.
This week on the Savage Lovecast: tales of open relationships gone horribly wrong. And Vibrator Addiction Syndrome—are you at risk? All at savagelovecast.com.
@fakedansavage on Twitter
1
Show your son kink.com - get him nice and ethically kinky from the get go. Women are degraded.. men are degraded... everyone gets an interview afterward.
3
@2: Well, that may be the case *now*, but I'm pretty sure that it still carries a wee disclaimer on the front that says 'Not for sale to minors'. I don't know what the law is like in your country, but in mine giving kids porn (or in some cases, access to porn) is a jailable offense.
@Dan: "And you're going to spank me right now, with my consent, and it's going to be hot."
I think I met a girl once who might have been able to be almost that direct. Once.
Mind you, if we as a culture could actually start talking frankly and unashamedly about sex and the things we want out of sex, then a lot of the incidents where he thought she consented but she didn't, wouldn't happen. So encouraging this kind of thing is a good thing, I suppose, even if not very realistic at the moment.
@Dan: "And you're going to spank me right now, with my consent, and it's going to be hot."
I think I met a girl once who might have been able to be almost that direct. Once.
Mind you, if we as a culture could actually start talking frankly and unashamedly about sex and the things we want out of sex, then a lot of the incidents where he thought she consented but she didn't, wouldn't happen. So encouraging this kind of thing is a good thing, I suppose, even if not very realistic at the moment.
4
BBTB: If you don't buy him the Playboy, he will definitely find a way to access internet porn. If you do, there is a small chance he might not. Either way, when he goes off to live in a college dorm, the blistering internet speeds will give him a porn bonanza, limited only by the number of hours his roommate is absent.
5
@4 - Yeah, but there's a big difference between an 18-year-old and a 13-year-old. By that point, he'll also have easy access to alcohol, pot, and all manner of other things. That doesn't mean that parents of 13-year-olds should throw up their hands and say, "He'll have that eventually anyway!" and go out and buy their kid a handle of vodka and some weed. Instead, they should spend the time while they still have their kid around instilling ideas about how to make thoughtful choices about all these things.
6
@BBTB - I think she should explain the situation to a trusted adult male family member.
@SKIRT - she should give her cousin a phone-sex number to call, and figure out a way to pay the charges.
@SKIRT - she should give her cousin a phone-sex number to call, and figure out a way to pay the charges.
7
When I was a young lad in the pre-web world my parents were open minded enough to buy PlayBoy magazines for me. I think this was for a few reasons:
1. They knew I already had an ingrained level of respect for women and seeing naked ones wasn't going to turn me into someone who objectifies women, only images of them in men's magazines.
2. PlayBoy is pretty mild stuff. And while you might object to naked ladies of objectifying the articles and news contained in PlayBoy are all very pro-women, pro-choice.
3. If they didn't get it for me they knew I'd find something else (possibly something less tasteful) on my own.
Bottom line, if your son has been taught to respect women (and he should have learned this lesson before he hit 13) then a magazine like PlayBoy won't damage him. But if he hasn't learned that by now no amount of porn filtering is going to help him. The little dude has seen porn and will see more porn, he's just giving you the chance to go along with something mild. Take the opportunity.
1. They knew I already had an ingrained level of respect for women and seeing naked ones wasn't going to turn me into someone who objectifies women, only images of them in men's magazines.
2. PlayBoy is pretty mild stuff. And while you might object to naked ladies of objectifying the articles and news contained in PlayBoy are all very pro-women, pro-choice.
3. If they didn't get it for me they knew I'd find something else (possibly something less tasteful) on my own.
Bottom line, if your son has been taught to respect women (and he should have learned this lesson before he hit 13) then a magazine like PlayBoy won't damage him. But if he hasn't learned that by now no amount of porn filtering is going to help him. The little dude has seen porn and will see more porn, he's just giving you the chance to go along with something mild. Take the opportunity.
8
I'm just saying that 13 is a pretty normal age for a kid to be starting to show an interest in porn and naked women, and that Playboy is about the most innocuous thing she could hope for. Her "all naked women = porn = horrific exploitation" line of reasoning is almost certain to be counterproductive.
9
"You mean the one that flashed her tits last week is gonna make out with the girl who was telling everyone she wasn't wearing any underwear?" Dorman asked while setting out newly washed glasses. "Whatever."
But seriously, it's so cute that you're upset about all those mean lesbians who find you annoying.
But seriously, it's so cute that you're upset about all those mean lesbians who find you annoying.
10
BBTB needs to get out of her son's porn habit. Seizing the smartphone was dumb. The correct thing to do would be to pretend she didn't know as I assume my parents did when I was that age. He's going to find a way to look at porn and it is really so much better if you are not involved.
11
Haven't people got anything better to worry about than drunk chicks acting out Katy Perry videos? Sheesh, talk about harmless.
12
Dear Drunk Straight Girl:
Be careful who you make out with. You might hit on a bisexual or lesbian woman who does not want to make out with you just to get the attention of some man. At best, much awkwardness will result.
Be careful who you make out with. You might hit on a bisexual or lesbian woman who does not want to make out with you just to get the attention of some man. At best, much awkwardness will result.
13
Really the only problem I have ever seen with DSGs making out with other DSGs is that it can sometimes teach DSBs that lesbians are one cup of coffee away from riding the nearest dick.
Mind you, they'd have to be the dumbest DSBs alive, but every time I think there can't possibly someone dumb enough to think X I find an entire corner of the internet full of them...
Mind you, they'd have to be the dumbest DSBs alive, but every time I think there can't possibly someone dumb enough to think X I find an entire corner of the internet full of them...
14
If BBTB really wants to do women a favor, instead of keeping her son from objectifying them through porn, how about some women-friendly porn with actual foreplay?
And a copy of Dan's advice to teens, re: work at getting your 20 year old self laid.
And a copy of Dan's advice to teens, re: work at getting your 20 year old self laid.
17
Used to work at a video store and a mom and son would come in and mom would rent porn for him. It was adorable. I envied their relationship. She stuck to fairly unagressive porn - Playboy titles and I think maybe Girls Gone Wild, both of which have their own issues but compared to the alternatives that were available even just at the store...
18
BBTB would have been a good time to remind mom about April's study that showed porn DOES NO HARM. Journal of Sexual Medicine. There's also been a ton of stuff over the years that shows it doesn't lead to violence against women and that those concerns are so 1980s, that women-appearing-in-porn are not damaged goods, blah blah science blah.
But BBTB is American and Americans don't care about science... OMG! My kid might be looking at nekkid people! Let me give him a dumb phone and make him the laughing stock of the whole school....
But BBTB is American and Americans don't care about science... OMG! My kid might be looking at nekkid people! Let me give him a dumb phone and make him the laughing stock of the whole school....
19
"how about some women-friendly porn with actual foreplay"
Ugggh, can we get over the stereotype that all women like foreplay? Please?
Ugggh, can we get over the stereotype that all women like foreplay? Please?
20
Dan,
I love you-you have been my IDOL for 100 years! I am a straight girl (with everything else mixed in). I have never before responded (because you have always been "dead-ass" in your responses, in my opinion.) I want to qualify this by saying I emulate you, and everything you have pushed for...but, WTF is up with you lately? I KNOW you-and you haven't been yourself in your responses. If you need time off-TAKE IT! If you need an intern-find the powers that be, and THROW DOWN! AMERICA NEEDS YOU (DESPERATELY!)Please don't become disenfranchised in the last inning, Dan! I have been a loyal reader of yours (since I was 17-not going to tell you how old I am now (mad old!!) We NEED you! Please reconsider, regroup, and come back fighting!
There are few American icons I quote, regularly.
Dan Savage will always be one. Stand up, or lay down-Dan. (I will say the same shit to the people rallying against Monsanto, next week...I KNOW you feel me).
with nothing but love,
-t.
I love you-you have been my IDOL for 100 years! I am a straight girl (with everything else mixed in). I have never before responded (because you have always been "dead-ass" in your responses, in my opinion.) I want to qualify this by saying I emulate you, and everything you have pushed for...but, WTF is up with you lately? I KNOW you-and you haven't been yourself in your responses. If you need time off-TAKE IT! If you need an intern-find the powers that be, and THROW DOWN! AMERICA NEEDS YOU (DESPERATELY!)Please don't become disenfranchised in the last inning, Dan! I have been a loyal reader of yours (since I was 17-not going to tell you how old I am now (mad old!!) We NEED you! Please reconsider, regroup, and come back fighting!
There are few American icons I quote, regularly.
Dan Savage will always be one. Stand up, or lay down-Dan. (I will say the same shit to the people rallying against Monsanto, next week...I KNOW you feel me).
with nothing but love,
-t.
21
@13 - DSBs? How about half of straight guys anywhere ever?
DSG-type behavior contributes to the widespread feeling among straight men that real lesbian/bi women are only doing it for their arousal, and that "you just haven't been with the right man". Ugh.
DSG-type behavior contributes to the widespread feeling among straight men that real lesbian/bi women are only doing it for their arousal, and that "you just haven't been with the right man". Ugh.
22
Hey DSG, you know why I hate women like you?
I'll tell you.
It's because I'M A LESBIAN WHO'S SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF YOUR SHENANIGANS.
I am not your "experiment."
I am not your "feel good drunk plaything."
I AM A WOMAN WHO WOULD LIKE TO HAVE AN ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN AND THE NEXT TIME ONE OF YOU BITCHES LEADS ME ON ALL NIGHT LONG AND THEN BREEZES PAST ME TO GO BACK TO HER BOYFRIEND JUST AS I'M READY TO ASK FOR YOUR NUMBER AND GO HOME, I WILL THROW YOU INTO A FUCKING WALL.
Don't want it to be "on you"? Then LEARN SOME FUCKING RESPECT.
Signed,
A lesbian who's been led into actual, buying-you-nice-things, taking-you-to-dinner relationships TWICE by girls who then proceeded to actually be straight and not interested in anything but drunk kissing
I'll tell you.
It's because I'M A LESBIAN WHO'S SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF YOUR SHENANIGANS.
I am not your "experiment."
I am not your "feel good drunk plaything."
I AM A WOMAN WHO WOULD LIKE TO HAVE AN ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN AND THE NEXT TIME ONE OF YOU BITCHES LEADS ME ON ALL NIGHT LONG AND THEN BREEZES PAST ME TO GO BACK TO HER BOYFRIEND JUST AS I'M READY TO ASK FOR YOUR NUMBER AND GO HOME, I WILL THROW YOU INTO A FUCKING WALL.
Don't want it to be "on you"? Then LEARN SOME FUCKING RESPECT.
Signed,
A lesbian who's been led into actual, buying-you-nice-things, taking-you-to-dinner relationships TWICE by girls who then proceeded to actually be straight and not interested in anything but drunk kissing
23
@22: I think the DSG who makes out with other DSGs are fine- silly, not without issues, but whatever. DSGs who find actual lesbians/bi girls to make out with for the express purpose of arousing DSBs and no intention of following through are assholes. It's not clear which subset the LW belongs to, but there is a distinction.
24
I agree with @22 and also one problem I have is with DSGs is that they seem to often identify as Bi, which they are not, and that makes people, both boys and girls, hetero and homo, think that there really is no such thing as a bisexual woman, and also I think DSGs who identify as bi are a big reason many lesbians have a "no bi-girls" policy. Which ruins it for me, an actual bi-girl.
25
Yeah, DSGs who make out with other DSGs are one of those things that I have nothing against on principle, but kind of piss me off anyway. I'm not saying that means they shouldn't do it - go ahead, whatever - but if I happen to see it, I'll make an irritated face and look away. Which, in the grand scheme of your drunken lolzbian makeouts, doesn't really mean anything, so I feel like it's okay for all involved.
Why? Well, for a number of reasons - objectification of women, rarely have I seen dudes make out to get a woman's attention, etc - but...well. For one thing, it gives a lot of guys some seriously warped ideas of what is and is not an okay reaction to seeing two women kiss at a bar. And for another, there is a certain species of DSG who like to try and drag women they don't necessarily know into their sexy funtimes. And as a woman who a) is not interested in attracting male attention and b) finds it kind of creepy when people she doesn't know tries to drag her into their sexy funtimes without so much as a by-your-leave, that...grates.
Why? Well, for a number of reasons - objectification of women, rarely have I seen dudes make out to get a woman's attention, etc - but...well. For one thing, it gives a lot of guys some seriously warped ideas of what is and is not an okay reaction to seeing two women kiss at a bar. And for another, there is a certain species of DSG who like to try and drag women they don't necessarily know into their sexy funtimes. And as a woman who a) is not interested in attracting male attention and b) finds it kind of creepy when people she doesn't know tries to drag her into their sexy funtimes without so much as a by-your-leave, that...grates.
26
I used to get annoyed at DSG's in college who'd wanna make out with me (a bi woman). What a tease!
But now I view it differently. I had some hot sexy funtimes with some women; some led to other things, some were just makeout sessions to get their boyfriends/random flirt dude hot. Got some kissing practice in on other women, which was a nice supplement to my skills when I actually dated the ones with follow-through potential. ;)
Tucked away on my hard drive is a series of photos of me smooching a bunch of different gal pals from one party, one weekend. I'll be happy I have those pix when I'm old & wrinkly.
@ 24 - yeah, most lesbians I've known don't date or even just fool around with bisexual ladies. Alas. I've known some super cute lesbians.
If DSG's only make out with other DSG's - hey, have fun. Doesn't vex me much. But when DSG's seek out bisexual or lesbian ladies for that kinda nonsense - knowingly - that's kinda f'd up.
But now I view it differently. I had some hot sexy funtimes with some women; some led to other things, some were just makeout sessions to get their boyfriends/random flirt dude hot. Got some kissing practice in on other women, which was a nice supplement to my skills when I actually dated the ones with follow-through potential. ;)
Tucked away on my hard drive is a series of photos of me smooching a bunch of different gal pals from one party, one weekend. I'll be happy I have those pix when I'm old & wrinkly.
@ 24 - yeah, most lesbians I've known don't date or even just fool around with bisexual ladies. Alas. I've known some super cute lesbians.
If DSG's only make out with other DSG's - hey, have fun. Doesn't vex me much. But when DSG's seek out bisexual or lesbian ladies for that kinda nonsense - knowingly - that's kinda f'd up.
27
@ 25 - lolzbian makeouts - hahahah. I hang out with fairly un-hung-up people; I've seen mostly straight dudes make out a couple of different times to get the attention of a gal who thought that was hot. :) 'course booze was involved.
DSG's aren't as bad as a recent trend I noticed in craigslist: "Pillow princesses". This was in the W 4 W section of "casual encounters". This is also a term another Slogger asked me to define in a SL column some weeks back, & I just forgot.
A pillow princess is someone who is probably mostly straight, curious to experiment with receiving oral sex from another woman, but is 100% upfront about her lack of interest in reciprocating. On the one hand, this term makes me roll my eyes. On the other hand, I met enough of this type of "experimental" lass in college, also, that I'm glad there's a word for it, & that the pillow princesses are letting people know who they are. That way, if that's for you - go for it. Not for me, though. ;)
I guess also that could work for a female/male relationship, but W 4 W is the first time I've come across pillow princesses.
DSG's aren't as bad as a recent trend I noticed in craigslist: "Pillow princesses". This was in the W 4 W section of "casual encounters". This is also a term another Slogger asked me to define in a SL column some weeks back, & I just forgot.
A pillow princess is someone who is probably mostly straight, curious to experiment with receiving oral sex from another woman, but is 100% upfront about her lack of interest in reciprocating. On the one hand, this term makes me roll my eyes. On the other hand, I met enough of this type of "experimental" lass in college, also, that I'm glad there's a word for it, & that the pillow princesses are letting people know who they are. That way, if that's for you - go for it. Not for me, though. ;)
I guess also that could work for a female/male relationship, but W 4 W is the first time I've come across pillow princesses.
28
DSG, here's why I hate your archetype.
I hate your archetype because I'm bi and no woman in their right mind wants to be with me because of it.
I hate your archetype because most of the really cute lesbians I hang out with wouldn't touch me with a ten-foot pole because they assume I'm a DSG - then DSGs target me and I wind up getting hurt even more. I'm shoved into a heterosexual corner when I'm not even primarily attracted to guys.
But most of all, I hate it because it makes it seem like everything we ladies do is to get the attention of guys we may not even like.
It may not be a problem for the LGBT community, but it IS MOST CERTAINLY a problem for the bisexual chicks around you. Seriously. Clean it up.
I hate your archetype because I'm bi and no woman in their right mind wants to be with me because of it.
I hate your archetype because most of the really cute lesbians I hang out with wouldn't touch me with a ten-foot pole because they assume I'm a DSG - then DSGs target me and I wind up getting hurt even more. I'm shoved into a heterosexual corner when I'm not even primarily attracted to guys.
But most of all, I hate it because it makes it seem like everything we ladies do is to get the attention of guys we may not even like.
It may not be a problem for the LGBT community, but it IS MOST CERTAINLY a problem for the bisexual chicks around you. Seriously. Clean it up.
29
BBTB's son expects her to buy his porn for him? Or provide him access to the internet for porn? What??
Sounds like he is pushing the boundaries with her using emotional blackmail, and we never heard about a teenager doing that, huh.
Does this boy not have an imagination all of his own?
Sounds like he is pushing the boundaries with her using emotional blackmail, and we never heard about a teenager doing that, huh.
Does this boy not have an imagination all of his own?
30
@22 that sucks but you sound realllly angry. Dating pretty much blows for most people who are looking for an actual relationship. I can only assume it's that much harder for lesbians. But getting pissed at the people who raise your hopes isn't productive and can lead to bitterness which we all know aint sexy.
The best way I've found to deal (as a straight woman who is a magnet for douchebags) is a) raise my expectations for who I spend time with; b) trust my gut--I usually have an inkling someone is playing games--I no longer ignore that instinct because I am wishing for a different outcome.
The best way I've found to deal (as a straight woman who is a magnet for douchebags) is a) raise my expectations for who I spend time with; b) trust my gut--I usually have an inkling someone is playing games--I no longer ignore that instinct because I am wishing for a different outcome.
31
to the DSG question:
as a woman, DSG kissing bothers me because it reinforced the idea that all sexual desire & activity by women exists for the pleasure of men.
as a lesbian, DSG kissing bothers me BECAUSE IT REINFORCED THE IDEA THAT ALL SEXUAL DESIRE & ACTIVITY BY WOMEN EXISTS FOR THE PLEASURE OF MEN. and that girls being gay isn't real, its just a prolonged experiment in titillating straight men, making then think its ok to hit on us/make skeevy comments to us BECAUSE we like girls.
as a woman, DSG kissing bothers me because it reinforced the idea that all sexual desire & activity by women exists for the pleasure of men.
as a lesbian, DSG kissing bothers me BECAUSE IT REINFORCED THE IDEA THAT ALL SEXUAL DESIRE & ACTIVITY BY WOMEN EXISTS FOR THE PLEASURE OF MEN. and that girls being gay isn't real, its just a prolonged experiment in titillating straight men, making then think its ok to hit on us/make skeevy comments to us BECAUSE we like girls.
32
@22 you sound way too angry, and sorry, but when you go into dating it\\\'s your job to filter out douchebags.
33
I agree with #8. Playboy's relatively harmless. And unless you unload a massive collection of older issues onto someone, they're going to be going through a limited amount of material. And something I learned at that age is that there's only so many times one can spank it to a single issue of Playboy without getting a little bored with the pictorials. Which means that you actually start reading and appreciating the articles while waiting for the next issue to come out. Although I admit my experience (wherein I stumbled onto the shelf in the bathroom where my dad kept his Playboys) may not be universal.
34
I'm not sure how lesbian or bi girls feel, but as a sober straight guy, I love to watch any girls kissing, drunk or sober, straight, bi or lesbian. But these girls are setting the guys up for disappointment when they find out later that the girls are 100% straight. The guy probably gets with one of the kissing girls with the hopes one day of a threesome with both girls, which of course, will never happen. Then the guy feels lied to and cheated, and like he has wasted his time in a relationship that was based on misdirection.
35
@18: "give him a dumb phone and make him the laughing stock of the whole school...."
Oh come on. No 7th grader needs a smart phone. If that's "making him the laughingstock" then he needs some more character building experiences. Like "I am the only 7th grader in the school whose mom won't let him look at porn on the internet, oh whoa is me."
Oh come on. No 7th grader needs a smart phone. If that's "making him the laughingstock" then he needs some more character building experiences. Like "I am the only 7th grader in the school whose mom won't let him look at porn on the internet, oh whoa is me."
36
@28 - DSG's aren't responsible for the way people interpret their behavior. If someone buys into the bisexual stereotype, then it's on them and no one else. All of the things you list are choices made by non DSG's. Instead of hating DSGs, why not direct that hate towards the people who look at them and make sweeping generalizations and faulty inferences? Why should anyone have to not do what they enjoy out of fear that some idiot will incorrectly read into the behavior and stereotype an entire group of people?
37
@34 - if you're trying to get to a threesome by going after girls who flagrantly and drunkenly kiss in a bar while wasted and desperately trying to draw attention to themselves, You're Doing It Wrong.
39
@ 22/Ninalyn: I thought of all those Nice Guys(tm) out there who get angry when gals use them for emotional support, and then run back to bad boy boyfriends for sex/love.
Those Nice Guys(tm) gripe about how gals they like will not engage with them in a sexual relationship, and how the women treat them like playthings for wicked ego-boosting tease sessions or something. In short, the Nice Guys(tm) sound just. like. you. From what I can tell, Nice Guys(tm) feel entitled to sexual access, based on their attraction to the woman and the female's social interactions with them. The Nice Guys(tm) get mad when they find out a woman had very limited interest in Nice Guys(tm) and she was reserving the sexy times fun for others. Just like you do.
Amirite?
Those Nice Guys(tm) gripe about how gals they like will not engage with them in a sexual relationship, and how the women treat them like playthings for wicked ego-boosting tease sessions or something. In short, the Nice Guys(tm) sound just. like. you. From what I can tell, Nice Guys(tm) feel entitled to sexual access, based on their attraction to the woman and the female's social interactions with them. The Nice Guys(tm) get mad when they find out a woman had very limited interest in Nice Guys(tm) and she was reserving the sexy times fun for others. Just like you do.
Amirite?
40
As far as the DSGs go, first, Mr Savage was very clever to start his reply as if she were going to get what she deserved only to take a sharp turn and wander away.
Bear in mind that apparently these antics take place in locations where they are viewed by women who would like to be doing the same thing but with deeper meaning and feeling with the women who are the recipients of their affections and not just the means of communication. Are pairs of genuine same-sexer women free to indulge in the same conduct without facing unpleasant reprisals? If not, one is flaunting privilege, and that's almost always tricky.
I believe Ms Erica has recalled some adventures along these lines, which appeared to have been conducted in a respectful manner. Perhaps she might supply guidelines. My instinct is that DSGs are to same-sexer women something similar to bachelorette parties in gay bars. Some people will never like such conduct for reason, but, done with consideration and respect, most people can probably get along. This particular letter writer came across as if she wouldn't know the meaning of respect if she'd been locked in a closet for a year with Aretha Franklin.
Bear in mind that apparently these antics take place in locations where they are viewed by women who would like to be doing the same thing but with deeper meaning and feeling with the women who are the recipients of their affections and not just the means of communication. Are pairs of genuine same-sexer women free to indulge in the same conduct without facing unpleasant reprisals? If not, one is flaunting privilege, and that's almost always tricky.
I believe Ms Erica has recalled some adventures along these lines, which appeared to have been conducted in a respectful manner. Perhaps she might supply guidelines. My instinct is that DSGs are to same-sexer women something similar to bachelorette parties in gay bars. Some people will never like such conduct for reason, but, done with consideration and respect, most people can probably get along. This particular letter writer came across as if she wouldn't know the meaning of respect if she'd been locked in a closet for a year with Aretha Franklin.
41
As for Ms Spank Me! NOW!!! - Mr Savage's proposed conduct could work, but the answer feels incomplete. This could be the sort of issue for the BF that could bring about major changes in him. I'd only advise the LW to go ahead on the aggressive line if she's confident he's close enough to the non-existent ONE. Otherwise, a separation would probably be the kind thing for both.
42
@dsg's letter
As a bi-girl, it can offend me that dsg's kiss other dsgs for the viewing pleasure of men because it reinforces the idea that any time two girls are together, they should be ready and willing to perform.
In college,I had a steady girlfriend for the first time, and we were fairly open about our relationship. However, almost every time a guy figured out our relationship status, they would blatantly ask us to make out for them. This is offensive and rude and I can't believe someone would even ask. Especially when we were going about our daily business and eating breakfast in the cafe.
So,I would appreciate it if dsg didn't help contribute to the idea that women and lesbians are there for the viewing pleasure of men, because I had to deal with several immature assholes who demanded that I perform for them even though I had no interest in having my privacy invade. How would straight couples like it if they were asked to perform on demand?
As a bi-girl, it can offend me that dsg's kiss other dsgs for the viewing pleasure of men because it reinforces the idea that any time two girls are together, they should be ready and willing to perform.
In college,I had a steady girlfriend for the first time, and we were fairly open about our relationship. However, almost every time a guy figured out our relationship status, they would blatantly ask us to make out for them. This is offensive and rude and I can't believe someone would even ask. Especially when we were going about our daily business and eating breakfast in the cafe.
So,I would appreciate it if dsg didn't help contribute to the idea that women and lesbians are there for the viewing pleasure of men, because I had to deal with several immature assholes who demanded that I perform for them even though I had no interest in having my privacy invade. How would straight couples like it if they were asked to perform on demand?
43
Yeah, so much for freedom to behave as one pleases as long as said behavior does not violate the freedom of others to behave in a similar fashion*. Why shouldn't DSG's use their drunkeness to kiss whomever they please? Why is "it makes it hard for me** to find people to sleep with" any more accaptable a rationalization for stigmatizing the behavior than "I find it morally repugnant? Shouldn't people who have had their sexual(ized)(izable) socially stigmatized behavior be more sensitive to how they seek to stigmatize others' sexual(ize)(izable) behavior***?
*I picked rather general principle, some, please, no counterexample--I'm not using it as a literal articulation of my entire political philsophy.
**This is, ironically, the rather stereotyped "straight-boy" justification.
***Interestingly, the stereotypical "straight-boy" justification for DSG behavior is rather uncritically accepted as DSG rationalization for their behavior, which allows the LW to declare DSG behavior as only for the pleasure of men by fiat of social projection.
*I picked rather general principle, some, please, no counterexample--I'm not using it as a literal articulation of my entire political philsophy.
**This is, ironically, the rather stereotyped "straight-boy" justification.
***Interestingly, the stereotypical "straight-boy" justification for DSG behavior is rather uncritically accepted as DSG rationalization for their behavior, which allows the LW to declare DSG behavior as only for the pleasure of men by fiat of social projection.
44
"Socially stigmatized behavior" shoud read "behavior socially stigmatized".
"Some" should read "so"
I logged in and posted, when my intent was just to log in.
"Some" should read "so"
I logged in and posted, when my intent was just to log in.
45
@28 if you really are hanging out with lesbians, on a regular basis, and they "won't touch [you] with a ten-foot pole" because they assume you're a DSG, where and why are you hanging with these ladies?
If you're hanging out with someone regularly (and occasionally sober) for a while, shouldn't they by now have seen more than DSG in you? If they haven't, either you're talking about people you meet once in a bar, or you're only willing to look for girls while drunk, or your "hang-out lesbians" are douchebags.
Get thee to the internet dating, where other bisexuals and non-douchebag lesbians won't have you automatically down as a DSG, because you'll be putting yourself out there as looking for more than just drunken makeouts with a girl by virtue of being there.
If you're hanging out with someone regularly (and occasionally sober) for a while, shouldn't they by now have seen more than DSG in you? If they haven't, either you're talking about people you meet once in a bar, or you're only willing to look for girls while drunk, or your "hang-out lesbians" are douchebags.
Get thee to the internet dating, where other bisexuals and non-douchebag lesbians won't have you automatically down as a DSG, because you'll be putting yourself out there as looking for more than just drunken makeouts with a girl by virtue of being there.
46
As much as I'm disappointed that the couple at MEATGIF's gym seem to lack subtlety and the ability to do this at hours and at gyms when/where it's not going to be an issue ('24 Hour' Fitness literally is open 24 hours a day, that's the point--you couldn't find a time when nobody else is around to do this?), I have to admit, they aren't doing anything too bold, and as a switch who is really into sweat, gyms, and muscle/sweat/scent worship, that sounds like a fucking amazing workout session, for either of them.
47
@35
Whoa: expression of delight or amazement
Woe: great sorrow or distress
People's english makes me exclaim: Whoa!
Woe is me! The language is doomed!
Whoa: expression of delight or amazement
Woe: great sorrow or distress
People's english makes me exclaim: Whoa!
Woe is me! The language is doomed!
48
@22, then you need to get better at reading people. Work on yourself.
Yes, there are assholes (of all genders and orientations) who lead ppl on w/ no regard for their feelings. That sucks. But that's no reason to go ALL CAPS crazylesbian on all straight women who want to mess around in bars. Please.
Sincerely,
a lesbian who could not care less what straight ppl do in bars. and who can't really argue against the immaculate hotness of ladies making out. Everyone should enjoy that. Everything doesn't have to culminate in a wedding, this isn't Pride and Prejudice.
(lastly, sure, I've had annoying moments in my life b/c people have assumed I'm "not really" a lesbian b/c I'm kind of straight-looking but guess what? THAT'S REALLY NOT THAT BIG OF A PROBLEM. Good god. One of the good things about being gay is that you have to learn not to crumple into a ball on your bathroom floor sobbing every time someone makes a mildly irritating comment.)
Yes, there are assholes (of all genders and orientations) who lead ppl on w/ no regard for their feelings. That sucks. But that's no reason to go ALL CAPS crazylesbian on all straight women who want to mess around in bars. Please.
Sincerely,
a lesbian who could not care less what straight ppl do in bars. and who can't really argue against the immaculate hotness of ladies making out. Everyone should enjoy that. Everything doesn't have to culminate in a wedding, this isn't Pride and Prejudice.
(lastly, sure, I've had annoying moments in my life b/c people have assumed I'm "not really" a lesbian b/c I'm kind of straight-looking but guess what? THAT'S REALLY NOT THAT BIG OF A PROBLEM. Good god. One of the good things about being gay is that you have to learn not to crumple into a ball on your bathroom floor sobbing every time someone makes a mildly irritating comment.)
49
@31, but how big of a problem is that, really? Only assholes would really 100% believe that all lesbians (or really, all non-butch lesbians) are faking it. Those ppl are likely assholes generally, with larger issues surrounding women and their own masculinity.
@42, right but... as a tiny minority, it's not productive for us (bi women/lesbians) to politely request that straight ppl refrain from a benign behavior like this. I'd add that while my gf and I have had some awkward/rude questions asked of us, no one has ever asked that we make out for them. And we are feminine lesbians, the sort that, in this horror-movie scenario everyone seems to be talking about, would be more affected by these lesbians-are-all-DSGs truthers.
Most of my friends are guys. I wouldn't hang out w/ the kind of dude who would ask a lesbian couple to perform for him. That would be literally shocking.
@42, right but... as a tiny minority, it's not productive for us (bi women/lesbians) to politely request that straight ppl refrain from a benign behavior like this. I'd add that while my gf and I have had some awkward/rude questions asked of us, no one has ever asked that we make out for them. And we are feminine lesbians, the sort that, in this horror-movie scenario everyone seems to be talking about, would be more affected by these lesbians-are-all-DSGs truthers.
Most of my friends are guys. I wouldn't hang out w/ the kind of dude who would ask a lesbian couple to perform for him. That would be literally shocking.
50
@47: I realized after I posted, and there is no edit button. If it makes you happy, pretend it is a play on "And when my mom said I had to be creative and discreet about looking at porn, my life was over!"
51
Regarding BBTB: Does LW not have any male relatives who can be an outlet for her son? How about directing her son to more progressive and female friendly porn sites so that he gets what he wants and he gets healthier porn? There are a couple of ways this could play out so that her son doesn't have to risk getting in legal trouble (Side question: Would stealing porno mags be an offense that could land him on a sex offender registry?), and he doesn't have to feel ashamed by his budding sexuality. Just sayin'....
52
vennominon@40 -- generally I only fool around in public with friends, and they know I'm mostly het, and would prefer activities to stay above the waist. Observers may not know, but then in the BDSM community, many people, male & female, are exhibitionists and appreciative of exhibitionists. A good flogging scene, a good piercing scene, one man spanking another, two women making out... it's all fun to watch, and if something upsets you, you leave the room.
It's a bit different from the situation referenced @9 (and others): a vanilla hetero space when two het women put on a show for the men, to the annoyance of the other women present, het, bi, and gay.
It's a bit different from the situation referenced @9 (and others): a vanilla hetero space when two het women put on a show for the men, to the annoyance of the other women present, het, bi, and gay.
53
Had another thought for SKIRT: if the cousin isn't able to call a sex line from the home, he can call her, and she can patch him into a three-way call to a sex line (so she gets the bill), and then she can mute the phone on her end and just come on to tell them to hang up after however long she wants to pay for.
54
Regarding BBTB: Does LW not have any male relatives who can be an outlet for her son? How about directing her son to more progressive and female friendly porn sites so that he gets what he wants and he gets healthier porn? There are a couple of ways this could play out so that her son doesn't have to risk getting in legal trouble (Side question: Would stealing porno mags be an offense that could land him on a sex offender registry?), and he doesn't have to feel ashamed by his budding sexuality. Just sayin'....
55
Kids don't NEED porn. What utter bullshit parenting. Why stunt a kid's sexual imagination this way? No wonder more and more young men can't even function in real life sexual situations any more.
57
Yeah, other people have said it, but basically my problem with drunk straight girls making out to attract men is that it often causes straight guys to think that ALL girls who are making out are trying to attract them and therefore want to be ogled and hit on while they're clearly occupied with someone else. It's pretty annoying.
58
Why is "putting on a show" not a valid for of sexuality?
Seems like a bunch of people are annoyed by DSGs because DSGs' behavior reflect poorly on them, which a pretty weak rationalization for insisting that the behavior is inappropriate.
Seems like a bunch of people are annoyed by DSGs because DSGs' behavior reflect poorly on them, which a pretty weak rationalization for insisting that the behavior is inappropriate.
59
This is becoming a recurring theme . . . "aspirational parenting" (the type of parents we aspire to be until the kids we actually have and the people we actually are change the way we actually parent.
Kids don't need smart phones - aspirational parent says, "I will give my child a smart phone and he will exercise good judgment because we talk about everything". How old is said child? "14". Good luck with that.
Directing your child to porn - aspirational parent says, "I will talk with my child about porn because he should understand that some is exploitive, most is staged (even the "amateur" sites), and we will explore together and it will help reinforce a healthy, non-objective view of the opposite sex." Do you think your child will be squicked out by looking at porn with mommy and daddy? "no". That's a level of comfort and openness that I have a hard time reconciling. Not the first part but the second part.
(and to reinforce a healthy view of the opposite sex and sexual curiosity, my parenting style is to acknowledge sexuality ("yes, sex feels good" and all the rest but I don't draw a roadmap of HOW you do certain things or WHERE you go for them (other than for condoms)), deal with issues of consent/respect head on ("Steubenville? A bunch of assholes. You NEVER do shit like that. Here's what's wrong . . . "); and model respectful behavior toward people of the opposite sex (even as I totally love looking at my kids' mom's breasts, pussy, ankle . . . they don't need to know EVERYTHING . . . and, of course, I do look at her with the upmost respect (as I think of creative ways of SHOWING that respect heh heh heh))
And while I am not fearful of porn-as-gateway-drug for my kids and am nonplussed about my kids viewing it (though I do worry about their ability to understand exactly what they are viewing), I am sad for them because so much of the discovery has been lost - I think some of the best part of sexual exploration at 13 and 14 and 15 was "opening the present" as we took off our clothes for the first times (I remember the first time I touched a girl's pussy, I was so surprised at how far down it was - after all, my dick was in front of me; of course I was inexperienced but there was (and continues to be) something sort of quaint about that discovery). Even when I was 13 and making out for something like 2 hours (who has that kind of time today?), I remember how amazing it was to keep my hand on my girlfriend's stomach. If I were 13 today, I'd expect several mind-blowing orgasms, acrobatics, prodigous squirts, etc., etc. Or at least I'd think that that was closer to the norm. So I weep for our youths' innocence lost through the viewing of porn. I don't worry about any long-term down side but I do think their short-term perception of reality can be a bit fucked up. Now get off my lawn.
More...
Kids don't need smart phones - aspirational parent says, "I will give my child a smart phone and he will exercise good judgment because we talk about everything". How old is said child? "14". Good luck with that.
Directing your child to porn - aspirational parent says, "I will talk with my child about porn because he should understand that some is exploitive, most is staged (even the "amateur" sites), and we will explore together and it will help reinforce a healthy, non-objective view of the opposite sex." Do you think your child will be squicked out by looking at porn with mommy and daddy? "no". That's a level of comfort and openness that I have a hard time reconciling. Not the first part but the second part.
(and to reinforce a healthy view of the opposite sex and sexual curiosity, my parenting style is to acknowledge sexuality ("yes, sex feels good" and all the rest but I don't draw a roadmap of HOW you do certain things or WHERE you go for them (other than for condoms)), deal with issues of consent/respect head on ("Steubenville? A bunch of assholes. You NEVER do shit like that. Here's what's wrong . . . "); and model respectful behavior toward people of the opposite sex (even as I totally love looking at my kids' mom's breasts, pussy, ankle . . . they don't need to know EVERYTHING . . . and, of course, I do look at her with the upmost respect (as I think of creative ways of SHOWING that respect heh heh heh))
And while I am not fearful of porn-as-gateway-drug for my kids and am nonplussed about my kids viewing it (though I do worry about their ability to understand exactly what they are viewing), I am sad for them because so much of the discovery has been lost - I think some of the best part of sexual exploration at 13 and 14 and 15 was "opening the present" as we took off our clothes for the first times (I remember the first time I touched a girl's pussy, I was so surprised at how far down it was - after all, my dick was in front of me; of course I was inexperienced but there was (and continues to be) something sort of quaint about that discovery). Even when I was 13 and making out for something like 2 hours (who has that kind of time today?), I remember how amazing it was to keep my hand on my girlfriend's stomach. If I were 13 today, I'd expect several mind-blowing orgasms, acrobatics, prodigous squirts, etc., etc. Or at least I'd think that that was closer to the norm. So I weep for our youths' innocence lost through the viewing of porn. I don't worry about any long-term down side but I do think their short-term perception of reality can be a bit fucked up. Now get off my lawn.
60
Dan, I think you totally missed the question for LW1. She didn't ask about moving this guy. She asked: "I would like him to have a sexual outlet, but one that doesn't involve me. Any ideas?"
Answer: You set some boundaries in your conversations. When he brings up the topic of cross-dressing, you respond that you really enjoy having conversations with him, but that you don't want to discuss that topic anymore. Then, change the subject. If he can't move past, then you politely excuse yourself.
Answer: You set some boundaries in your conversations. When he brings up the topic of cross-dressing, you respond that you really enjoy having conversations with him, but that you don't want to discuss that topic anymore. Then, change the subject. If he can't move past, then you politely excuse yourself.
61
Dan the MAN---LOL!!!! I LOVE your advice to PLUG----"that shit pays off in the end." I so do enjoy reading your column, and continue to learn something new every week! Thanks again for making this crazy lady's day!
Hmmmm.....speaking of which, Smitten Kitten does have..um... an interesting butt plug selection. Very colorful, I'll say that.
Hmmmm.....speaking of which, Smitten Kitten does have..um... an interesting butt plug selection. Very colorful, I'll say that.
62
So very thankful my mom wasn't the overly-opinionated, authoritarian type like BBTB. (Dad, too, for that matter.)
@55: Kids don't NEED porn.
And yet the lengths they'll go to get it!
I shoplifted 2 years worth of Playboys and Penthouses as an adolescent. Before that I spent a month's worth of paper route money buying a small stash from some neighborhood kid. And prior to that I made due with the women's underwear section in the Sears catalog. And I still remember the embarrassment of my mom asking what her Redbook magazine was doing under my mattress. (Well, you see, ma, it's got this picture of a boob in it.) I even remember turning to National Geographic on few desperate occasions.
Why stunt a kid's sexual imagination
Pfffft. Porn doesn't stunt one's imagination any more than do real women and real sex, for which it serves as a proxy. If you take away porn and real sex from a man, he'll be jerking off to his imagination again in a matter of weeks, and his imagination will be all the richer for having viewed the porn and had sex with the real women.
@55: Kids don't NEED porn.
And yet the lengths they'll go to get it!
I shoplifted 2 years worth of Playboys and Penthouses as an adolescent. Before that I spent a month's worth of paper route money buying a small stash from some neighborhood kid. And prior to that I made due with the women's underwear section in the Sears catalog. And I still remember the embarrassment of my mom asking what her Redbook magazine was doing under my mattress. (Well, you see, ma, it's got this picture of a boob in it.) I even remember turning to National Geographic on few desperate occasions.
Why stunt a kid's sexual imagination
Pfffft. Porn doesn't stunt one's imagination any more than do real women and real sex, for which it serves as a proxy. If you take away porn and real sex from a man, he'll be jerking off to his imagination again in a matter of weeks, and his imagination will be all the richer for having viewed the porn and had sex with the real women.
63
Just to add, I don't think it's a hugely important problem, but it's definitely one I come up against more often than I'd like...
64
@63, yeah exactly. Those attitudes do sometimes police the behavior of actual lesbians like myself. Probably some lesbians have had similar experiences to me: I remember one night kissing a girl in city park park and suddenly some guys were cheering. I was frankly too in to what I was doing to be super aware of them, but it was mildly annoying I guess.
And I guess I just accept that that's the way the world is? And that it could be a lot worse? Think about the reception gay dudes get from those sort of straight guys sometimes, which is in fact a lot worse. Or is that too negative a worldview?
But I really don't see why drunk straight girls deserve the blame for dumb groups of dudes looking to loudly comment on lesbians making out. As @58 said, why are they not allowed to do whatever they want?
And I guess I just accept that that's the way the world is? And that it could be a lot worse? Think about the reception gay dudes get from those sort of straight guys sometimes, which is in fact a lot worse. Or is that too negative a worldview?
But I really don't see why drunk straight girls deserve the blame for dumb groups of dudes looking to loudly comment on lesbians making out. As @58 said, why are they not allowed to do whatever they want?
65
@42 "[a]lmost every time a guy figured out our relationship status, they would blatantly ask us to make out for them. This is offensive and rude and I can't believe someone would even ask."
I can totally believe that there are a few guys so poorly socialized that they would ask chicks who might be into that sort of thing to do said things for that guy's pleasure.
However, it's like that saying about how everyone has to deal with an asshole or two every day, but if you're dealing with more than that, you're probably the asshole...
I can totally believe that there are a few guys so poorly socialized that they would ask chicks who might be into that sort of thing to do said things for that guy's pleasure.
However, it's like that saying about how everyone has to deal with an asshole or two every day, but if you're dealing with more than that, you're probably the asshole...
66
MMK, proceed with extreme caution. You're in a better position to judge, but you could stumble into a major trigger if you force the issue with your bf. Light spanking falls generally into the category of GGG, but he's already expressed he has issues with it. You may be able to work past it or it may tank your relationship.
MEATGIF, Dan's not wrong. Public D/s play. There's a Dom with a very hot tumblr who writes about this a lot, but it's in the context of someone who's also working out (despite the scene happening, anyone looking at it would think they were workout buddies). If it is everyone who's freaked out, speak to the management. Doing a muscle worship scene at the gym is over the line if all of you didn't consent to participate in the scene.
MEATGIF, Dan's not wrong. Public D/s play. There's a Dom with a very hot tumblr who writes about this a lot, but it's in the context of someone who's also working out (despite the scene happening, anyone looking at it would think they were workout buddies). If it is everyone who's freaked out, speak to the management. Doing a muscle worship scene at the gym is over the line if all of you didn't consent to participate in the scene.
67
I think Dan missed an opportunity to give some of my favorite advice to STAP. Want to share sex toys? Throw a condom over them and go to town. Don't want to deal with cleaning your sex toys after use? Throw a condom on them and cleanup is trivial. Want to use one toy in multiple orifices? Condoms again.
And silicone doesn't whine about how it "can't feel anything" with a rubber on.
And silicone doesn't whine about how it "can't feel anything" with a rubber on.
68
re: DSGs
Back when I was about 22, having harbored mega lust for girls for ages but functionally a straight girl at the time, I was at a local bar in Oly. Lots of friends and coworkers around that night. I had recently begun a thing with one of my coworkers, DSB, and later that night after having been introduced to a gal pal of his, she and I started making out hot and heavy at the bar. I was ELATED. This was the first time I'd ever made out with a girl and it was hot and I was in heaven.
Later on, one of my anarchist coworkers (Oly, need I say more?) expressed his displeasure to me that I had been 'that drunk straight girl making out with girls to get guy's attention'-- woosh, there went my happiness. He didn't know me, he didn't know I'd been waiting for a moment like that for forever, and it was really upsetting. I was young, did not defend myself, and it still (obviously) bugs me to this day.
I'm 29 now, and only in the past year have I finally had the guts to come out as queer (what I've been in my heart all these years) to my friends and family. Femme invisibility sucks (just as much as it sucks that I benefit from the associated privileges of that invisibilty when convenient) which is why I talk about my queer identity and queer issues a bunch more now to combat it.
DSG obviously knows and owns what she's doing, but just a reminder: you don't always know someone's history or identity, so don't be so quick to judge.
Back when I was about 22, having harbored mega lust for girls for ages but functionally a straight girl at the time, I was at a local bar in Oly. Lots of friends and coworkers around that night. I had recently begun a thing with one of my coworkers, DSB, and later that night after having been introduced to a gal pal of his, she and I started making out hot and heavy at the bar. I was ELATED. This was the first time I'd ever made out with a girl and it was hot and I was in heaven.
Later on, one of my anarchist coworkers (Oly, need I say more?) expressed his displeasure to me that I had been 'that drunk straight girl making out with girls to get guy's attention'-- woosh, there went my happiness. He didn't know me, he didn't know I'd been waiting for a moment like that for forever, and it was really upsetting. I was young, did not defend myself, and it still (obviously) bugs me to this day.
I'm 29 now, and only in the past year have I finally had the guts to come out as queer (what I've been in my heart all these years) to my friends and family. Femme invisibility sucks (just as much as it sucks that I benefit from the associated privileges of that invisibilty when convenient) which is why I talk about my queer identity and queer issues a bunch more now to combat it.
DSG obviously knows and owns what she's doing, but just a reminder: you don't always know someone's history or identity, so don't be so quick to judge.
69
"Spanking someone without consent is assault, but spanking someone with consent is sexy. And you're going to spank me right now, with my consent, and it's going to be hot."
I guess Dan forgot that consent needs to be BOTH WAYS? What happened to the GUY'S consent here? If he doesn't want to spank her, he DOES NOT HAVE TO.
I guess Dan forgot that consent needs to be BOTH WAYS? What happened to the GUY'S consent here? If he doesn't want to spank her, he DOES NOT HAVE TO.
70
Is there any reason other than sexually-transmitted-infection issues—not an issue for us—that we shouldn't share a butt plug?
Um -- because you can't both use it at the same time?
And while I realize that most fecal germs are not as dangerous as people think (otherwise we'd all be dead, the way they migrate around), they aren't utterly benign, either.
Um -- because you can't both use it at the same time?
And while I realize that most fecal germs are not as dangerous as people think (otherwise we'd all be dead, the way they migrate around), they aren't utterly benign, either.
71
Why is the onus on DSGs to control what men think about what they do? Why is the problem with them rather than some men being sexist (women and female sexuality exist for my pleasure) or homophobic (all lesbians are just the right dick, preferably mine, away from straightdom)? Objectifying women is part of the larger culture, not something that sprang up because Katy Perry kissed a girl.
Re: the crossdressing disabled guy... I have to say, LW says his mental age is about eight. Does she really know his wearing dresses is sexual? When my brother and I were kids we both crossdressed as part of imaginative play. For all I know he now likes to wear women's panties, but... Assuming a role of the opposite gender can be innocent fun for kids. Presumably as the cousin has an adult body he has some sexual desires, but that doesn't make his play acting a kink.
Re: the crossdressing disabled guy... I have to say, LW says his mental age is about eight. Does she really know his wearing dresses is sexual? When my brother and I were kids we both crossdressed as part of imaginative play. For all I know he now likes to wear women's panties, but... Assuming a role of the opposite gender can be innocent fun for kids. Presumably as the cousin has an adult body he has some sexual desires, but that doesn't make his play acting a kink.
72
DSGs annoy me not because of what they are doing, or how they "reflect" on anyone else, but because they are often the kind of girls that I find really tiresome. They are usually the female counterpart to bro-dude boys. I don't care how hot any of them are: bleck.
I'll take the table in the back with the butch chick and the femmey guy doing shots and arguing about nerdy things...and see if they'll make out with me.
I'll take the table in the back with the butch chick and the femmey guy doing shots and arguing about nerdy things...and see if they'll make out with me.
73
@27, I must have missed the definition of "pillow princess" in a previous thread... Can't say I'm thrilled with the term, but it's good to know there are enough of us to come up with one. I never quite know how to explain it on the rare occasions it comes up. I think women are beautiful, I can be turned on by women, but I have almost zero interest in any vagina that isn't mine (I say almost because I'm sure there's gotta be one or two exceptions). I've made out with other girls, and let them do things to me, but I would never think to lead them on that I wanted to do anything back.
74
22: If you’re making out with strangers in bars (which is fine), there are thousands of reasons that these encounters might not turn into fulfilling, committed relationships; DSGs leading you on is only one of those reasons, and not the main one.
It’s even less likely to be a factor if you’re buying gifts for these girls and going on dinner dates before getting dumped. I’ve seen plenty of the DSG “make out to impress boys at a bar” sessions, and generally they don’t involve going on multiple dates with the girl and exchanging gifts.
It sounds more like you’re just dating women and getting dumped by some of them. And I don’t know; maybe some of them are bi, so you’re seeing them with guys later and assuming it was just a DSG act all along or something.
DSG’s may be ridiculous and a bit annoying (most forms of flirtation are), but it’s bizarre to insist that they’re somehow able to stop you from finding romance. Other lesbians seem to manage just fine.
Back to the main thread: people who doubt the existence of genuine bisexuality and lesbianism are simply homophobic, stupid assholes. They are not “caused” by DSGs. They may bring them up as argument fodder from time to time, but the homophobia and stupidity are what’s causing them to confuse DSGs with bi/lesbianism; not vice versa. They would still be stupid homophobes if there were no such thing as DSGs.
DSGs are nothing more than one of the many inevitable manifestations of humanity’s fluid “gradient” of sexuality: just queer enough to enjoy some same-sex makeouts while the other sex watches/participates. Our species simply doesn’t fit neatly into “100% straight – exactly 50/50 bisexual – 100% gay.” People along any part of this gradient should do what they like, and when morons point at them and draw moronic inferences, the right answer is to yell at the morons, not at the people they’re watching.
Same thing with the guys who demand that “real” lesbians make out to entertain them. Why on earth would you search for some loose logical connection that allows you to blame some random women (DSGs or otherwise) rather than blaming the entitled asshole himself for being an entitled asshole?
More...
It’s even less likely to be a factor if you’re buying gifts for these girls and going on dinner dates before getting dumped. I’ve seen plenty of the DSG “make out to impress boys at a bar” sessions, and generally they don’t involve going on multiple dates with the girl and exchanging gifts.
It sounds more like you’re just dating women and getting dumped by some of them. And I don’t know; maybe some of them are bi, so you’re seeing them with guys later and assuming it was just a DSG act all along or something.
DSG’s may be ridiculous and a bit annoying (most forms of flirtation are), but it’s bizarre to insist that they’re somehow able to stop you from finding romance. Other lesbians seem to manage just fine.
Back to the main thread: people who doubt the existence of genuine bisexuality and lesbianism are simply homophobic, stupid assholes. They are not “caused” by DSGs. They may bring them up as argument fodder from time to time, but the homophobia and stupidity are what’s causing them to confuse DSGs with bi/lesbianism; not vice versa. They would still be stupid homophobes if there were no such thing as DSGs.
DSGs are nothing more than one of the many inevitable manifestations of humanity’s fluid “gradient” of sexuality: just queer enough to enjoy some same-sex makeouts while the other sex watches/participates. Our species simply doesn’t fit neatly into “100% straight – exactly 50/50 bisexual – 100% gay.” People along any part of this gradient should do what they like, and when morons point at them and draw moronic inferences, the right answer is to yell at the morons, not at the people they’re watching.
Same thing with the guys who demand that “real” lesbians make out to entertain them. Why on earth would you search for some loose logical connection that allows you to blame some random women (DSGs or otherwise) rather than blaming the entitled asshole himself for being an entitled asshole?
75
@42, et al,
I don't get the logic of all the arguments here saying that girls shouldn't act a certain way because that will only reinforce guys' ideas that ALL girls should act that way.
Guys who think that all girls want to perform for them are assholes. Guys who thing that all girls should perform for them are assholes. Guys who think there's no such thing as a lesbian are assholes. It is not any woman's responsibility to limit her activities in hopes that it'll make these assholes less assholey.
It could well be that girls who make out with other girls for the sole purpose of attracting male attention are themselves assholes, but if so, it's just because these "look at me" types are kind of icky, and not because of what they might cause asshole men to generalize about the entire female population. That generalizing is the fault of the guy doing it.
I don't get the logic of all the arguments here saying that girls shouldn't act a certain way because that will only reinforce guys' ideas that ALL girls should act that way.
Guys who think that all girls want to perform for them are assholes. Guys who thing that all girls should perform for them are assholes. Guys who think there's no such thing as a lesbian are assholes. It is not any woman's responsibility to limit her activities in hopes that it'll make these assholes less assholey.
It could well be that girls who make out with other girls for the sole purpose of attracting male attention are themselves assholes, but if so, it's just because these "look at me" types are kind of icky, and not because of what they might cause asshole men to generalize about the entire female population. That generalizing is the fault of the guy doing it.
76
Definitely no expert on this Dan, but from my conversations with young lesbian friends (college age to mid twenties) the behavior that Drunk Straight Girl describes, if performed with a bi/lesbian girl (she doesn't identify that she is kissing straight girls) is quite offensive. Remember when you were single in your twenties. If some attractive guy came on to you and started making out with you, then announce, "Sorry, I'm straight." just so he could get the attention of some female, wouldn't you be offended?
Now if Drunk Straight Girl is kissing other straight girls, who cares.
Now if Drunk Straight Girl is kissing other straight girls, who cares.
77
For DSG: one, don't sell out your sexuality to attract men. If you win a man over by making out with other girls, but you don't actually want to fuck one, how is that going to play out over the course of your relationship? It's false advertising, and it starts out a potential partner with the wrong expectations from you.
Also, as a girl who's gone with girls, it's fucking obnoxious that I can be out with a girl, and suddenly every guy around thinks we're putting on a show for him. Do you know how uncomfortable it is to pull out from a kiss and realize twenty strangers are staring and grinning at you, expecting more? There's nothing wrong with men enjoying lesbians, but we've created a mythos of lesbians-are-for-men's-entertainment through this kind of flirting.
And the third reason why it's lame? It's lame. It's a cheap trick. If sticking your tongue down your drunk straight friend's throat is the only way you can get a guy, I can't imagine you can keep one for very long.
Also, as a girl who's gone with girls, it's fucking obnoxious that I can be out with a girl, and suddenly every guy around thinks we're putting on a show for him. Do you know how uncomfortable it is to pull out from a kiss and realize twenty strangers are staring and grinning at you, expecting more? There's nothing wrong with men enjoying lesbians, but we've created a mythos of lesbians-are-for-men's-entertainment through this kind of flirting.
And the third reason why it's lame? It's lame. It's a cheap trick. If sticking your tongue down your drunk straight friend's throat is the only way you can get a guy, I can't imagine you can keep one for very long.
78
@39: BS. See, the Nice Guys expect all women to exist for their sexual gratification.
I do not expect this. What I expect is to NOT BE USED. Don't start a relationship with me, let me take you on dates, call you my girlfriend TO OTHER PEOPLE, etc., etc., and two months in when I suggest you sleep over, you say "oh, I'm straight, I thought you knew."
THAT is bullshit. If you're straight and you know I'm gay and you know I think we're dating and you are any kind of responsible, you'll say "hey--no offense, but you do know I'm straight, right?" the first time I introduce you as my girlfriend. It's not called "friendzoning"--I've definitely had straight girl friends I was attracted to, gone to a couple of activities with, and then had them tell me "you know, just so you know, I love doing stuff with you but I'm straight" and I have no problem with that (one of my best friends in college was a failed dating attempt that we still laugh about several years later). What I have a problem with is being really, actively led on.
@ other commenters telling me to stop hanging with douchebags, etc.: out of a total of four relationships I've had, TWO of them have been with girls like this--one whom I met first online through a shared love of musicals and then in person, and one who was part of a group of my friends; we did in fact meet in a bar, but could as easily have done in a restaurant or other "girls' night out" venue; the bar was just where we happened to be hanging that night. Where did they get the idea it was okay to make me an experiment (one of them flat out told me she was bisexual, only for me to discover later that she has no interest in women beyond what they can buy for her) without telling me? And I quote: "I see other girls do it all the time, I didn't know you'd be so upset." WHERE DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY ARE SEEING THESE GIRLS, HM?
DSGs make it harder for lesbians and MUCH harder for bisexuals: 24, 26, I hate to tell you I'm one of those lesbians with a no-bisexuals rule because fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. There is no fooling me three times.
Damned right I'm angry. I'm angry that it's okay for two DSGs to go to a lesbian bar, spend all night making out with each other, and then call me a disgusting queer. I'm angry that they think it's funny to point and laugh and try to shame actual lesbians. I'm angry for my bisexual friends that they have to put up with this bullshit (I assume that they, at least, are not lying to me about their orientations because, having been placed firmly in the friend category, they have no reason to do so). I'm angry and disgusted that this behaviour leads to men who find out I'm a lesbian and go "so, like--I can watch you and your girlfriend make out, right?" (The number of men who have offered to pay me to do this is absolutely revolting. I'm not a whore, assholes.) I'm angry that there are women who think it's funny to go out of their way to cockblock other women.
Don't like it? Try being on the gay side of the fence for once. Ask a gay man what he hates most about gay bars these days, and odds are good he'll agree with me: "All the straight women."
More...
I do not expect this. What I expect is to NOT BE USED. Don't start a relationship with me, let me take you on dates, call you my girlfriend TO OTHER PEOPLE, etc., etc., and two months in when I suggest you sleep over, you say "oh, I'm straight, I thought you knew."
THAT is bullshit. If you're straight and you know I'm gay and you know I think we're dating and you are any kind of responsible, you'll say "hey--no offense, but you do know I'm straight, right?" the first time I introduce you as my girlfriend. It's not called "friendzoning"--I've definitely had straight girl friends I was attracted to, gone to a couple of activities with, and then had them tell me "you know, just so you know, I love doing stuff with you but I'm straight" and I have no problem with that (one of my best friends in college was a failed dating attempt that we still laugh about several years later). What I have a problem with is being really, actively led on.
@ other commenters telling me to stop hanging with douchebags, etc.: out of a total of four relationships I've had, TWO of them have been with girls like this--one whom I met first online through a shared love of musicals and then in person, and one who was part of a group of my friends; we did in fact meet in a bar, but could as easily have done in a restaurant or other "girls' night out" venue; the bar was just where we happened to be hanging that night. Where did they get the idea it was okay to make me an experiment (one of them flat out told me she was bisexual, only for me to discover later that she has no interest in women beyond what they can buy for her) without telling me? And I quote: "I see other girls do it all the time, I didn't know you'd be so upset." WHERE DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY ARE SEEING THESE GIRLS, HM?
DSGs make it harder for lesbians and MUCH harder for bisexuals: 24, 26, I hate to tell you I'm one of those lesbians with a no-bisexuals rule because fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. There is no fooling me three times.
Damned right I'm angry. I'm angry that it's okay for two DSGs to go to a lesbian bar, spend all night making out with each other, and then call me a disgusting queer. I'm angry that they think it's funny to point and laugh and try to shame actual lesbians. I'm angry for my bisexual friends that they have to put up with this bullshit (I assume that they, at least, are not lying to me about their orientations because, having been placed firmly in the friend category, they have no reason to do so). I'm angry and disgusted that this behaviour leads to men who find out I'm a lesbian and go "so, like--I can watch you and your girlfriend make out, right?" (The number of men who have offered to pay me to do this is absolutely revolting. I'm not a whore, assholes.) I'm angry that there are women who think it's funny to go out of their way to cockblock other women.
Don't like it? Try being on the gay side of the fence for once. Ask a gay man what he hates most about gay bars these days, and odds are good he'll agree with me: "All the straight women."
79
77: Those "twenty strangers" sure are assholes. Care to elaborate on how it's a bunch of women's fault, and not their own?
80
@78, "Don't start a relationship with me, let me take you on dates, call you my girlfriend TO OTHER PEOPLE, etc., etc., and two months in when I suggest you sleep over, you say "oh, I'm straight, I thought you knew.""
I suggest holding off on calling it a relationship until after you have sex together.
I suggest holding off on calling it a relationship until after you have sex together.
81
@60- you'll make the kid cry, he doesn't get why you are ashamed to talk about shit that you were (until recently) comfortable speaking about. Is it even sexual ? Would he be capable of expressing if he were trans ? Unless he starts talking about graphic stuff I'd just leave it alone, make sure he eats his veggies and Santa might bring you a sears gift card for Christmas.
@baffled- thanks for raising a jerk with no boundaries. You're clueless, where is his dad, or at least the more masculine partner ? You see that kid in the shops telling their mom to fuck off ? That's the same kid telling his girl/boyfriends/husbands/wives the same thing years later. I think the poit Dan was trying to make (or the one I heard anyways) was that it is plain fucked up and inappropriate for you to supply your son with jerk off material, and it's really inappropriate for him to ask. It seems like she is asking for permission to do something she knows is wrong just for the sake of expediency, or just plain ease.
@baffled- thanks for raising a jerk with no boundaries. You're clueless, where is his dad, or at least the more masculine partner ? You see that kid in the shops telling their mom to fuck off ? That's the same kid telling his girl/boyfriends/husbands/wives the same thing years later. I think the poit Dan was trying to make (or the one I heard anyways) was that it is plain fucked up and inappropriate for you to supply your son with jerk off material, and it's really inappropriate for him to ask. It seems like she is asking for permission to do something she knows is wrong just for the sake of expediency, or just plain ease.
82
@Ninalyn: I'm quite enjoying your hilarious impression of the stereotypical "Lesbian With Chip On Shoulder". Great stuff!
83
@69 THANK YOU. That really bothered me too, and I kept waiting for someone to bring it up. Dan is suggesting that she give her boyfriend this snarky little speech and then ORDER him to spank her? His reasons for not wanting to spank her sound really legitimate. She might be treading on a minefield here, and they should really negotiate before they do anything that might trigger him.
84
78: I think most of us find it baffling how you can equate “I dated a girl for two months and she broke up with me while claiming to be straight” with “she must have been making out with me to impress boys.” Was there a giggling drunk guy tagging along with you guys those entire two months?
Sounds more like someone struggling with the closet (or you being wayyyy too hopeful about a platonic friendship), not a drunk straight girl. DSG encounters tend to be singular make-out sessions for a few minutes at a party or bar, not months-long relationships involving dinner dates and meeting the family. If she brought up DSGs as her “inspiration” for “trying you out,” I guarantee you that she was grasping for an excuse for her behavior (or was severely stupid). DSGs don’t “cause” conflicted closet cases to try dating women as they “figure out” their sexuality.
Your stories are simply cases of assholes being assholes and blaming strangers for their own behavior (gee, that’s not common at all). Quit being gullible and swallowing up their bullshit.
Sounds more like someone struggling with the closet (or you being wayyyy too hopeful about a platonic friendship), not a drunk straight girl. DSG encounters tend to be singular make-out sessions for a few minutes at a party or bar, not months-long relationships involving dinner dates and meeting the family. If she brought up DSGs as her “inspiration” for “trying you out,” I guarantee you that she was grasping for an excuse for her behavior (or was severely stupid). DSGs don’t “cause” conflicted closet cases to try dating women as they “figure out” their sexuality.
Your stories are simply cases of assholes being assholes and blaming strangers for their own behavior (gee, that’s not common at all). Quit being gullible and swallowing up their bullshit.
86
What I want to know is, if a DSG makes out with a DSB, does that mean the DSG has to follow through with the DSB? Is it okay for her to tease him a bit at the bar/party/friend's living room and then go home alone? Because I have been known to be a DSG on occasion, and I enjoy making out with willing humans, but I'm not going to take them home just because I got to first base with them.
87
@78 - i second EricaP. in fact, sex or not, two months is not a relationship, and the issue here is one of romantic delusion. you should never have called her your girlfriend in public, and without discussion and consent!?! that is actually pretty fucked up.
88
Anti porn mom is as dumb as the crazy christians who try to beat the love of porn out of their sons. All it does is make the normal thing their normal kid wants (looking at pussies) into a naughty thing all twisted up with kinky embarrassment and self loathing. Giving your son an old-school feminist scolding about their desires is no better than telling them rubbing their dicks makes baby Jesus cry.
She wants to let him see Playboy; full of airbrushed, bleached, silicone bimbos instead of the internet where it is at least possible to see real people having real sex? Dan has given much better advice on this subject in the past: speak to your son about how porno sex can be different than real person sex and that not many real women will be interested in lots that you see on the internet. That porn is private and should not be viewed in public. Then give him back his damn phone and pretend not to hear him beating off in his room like a good mom.
She wants to let him see Playboy; full of airbrushed, bleached, silicone bimbos instead of the internet where it is at least possible to see real people having real sex? Dan has given much better advice on this subject in the past: speak to your son about how porno sex can be different than real person sex and that not many real women will be interested in lots that you see on the internet. That porn is private and should not be viewed in public. Then give him back his damn phone and pretend not to hear him beating off in his room like a good mom.
89
For all those claiming that DSGs cause harm by perpetuating straight boy bullshit about the “purpose” of lesbians:
Women who perform an act “for” a guy aren’t grooming that guy to expect said act from all women. A guy is responsible for his own outlook on women. For example:
Several women have had sex with me. If I therefore expect all women to just automatically have sex with me, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Even more women have given me blowjobs. If I then turn around and start thinking it’s a given that sucking my dick is just something I should expect all women to do, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Should women everywhere stop giving blowjobs or fucking in order to avoid potentially validating the misconceptions of entitled, sexist men?
You can see where I’m going here. If some guy automatically expects something of all women because a few have done that thing for him in the past, that’s on HIM. It’s his fault for being an asshole, not their fault for not policing their own behavior with the (impossible) goal of never doing anything that a guy might later expect women in general to do for him.
There’s no reason this logic shouldn’t also apply to drunk chicks making out with each other to entertain a guy. If he then expects that to be the “role” of all lesbians or all women, that’s HIS fault for being an entitled, moronic prick. It’s not their fault for failing to baby him.
Women who perform an act “for” a guy aren’t grooming that guy to expect said act from all women. A guy is responsible for his own outlook on women. For example:
Several women have had sex with me. If I therefore expect all women to just automatically have sex with me, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Even more women have given me blowjobs. If I then turn around and start thinking it’s a given that sucking my dick is just something I should expect all women to do, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Should women everywhere stop giving blowjobs or fucking in order to avoid potentially validating the misconceptions of entitled, sexist men?
You can see where I’m going here. If some guy automatically expects something of all women because a few have done that thing for him in the past, that’s on HIM. It’s his fault for being an asshole, not their fault for not policing their own behavior with the (impossible) goal of never doing anything that a guy might later expect women in general to do for him.
There’s no reason this logic shouldn’t also apply to drunk chicks making out with each other to entertain a guy. If he then expects that to be the “role” of all lesbians or all women, that’s HIS fault for being an entitled, moronic prick. It’s not their fault for failing to baby him.
90
#5 - The problem is when DSBs overgeneralize and assume that any lady/lady action is intended for their entertainment. I'd like to be able to kiss another girl in public without being subject to catcalls and propositions. It's very unpleasant.
91
Years ago you published a column about advice to a teenage boy on how to prepare yourself to attract women in the future. It was a great column. My son was about 9 at the time. I printed and filed it and gave it to my son when he was 14. BBTB could probably benefit from a reprint.
92
Years ago you published a column about advice to a teenage boy on how to prepare himself to attract women in the future. It was a great column. My son was about 9 at the time. I printed and filed it and gave it to my son when he was 14. BBTB could probably benefit from a reprint.
93
Dear Drunk Straight Girl, Dan has dropped the ball on this one, so let me answer your question. People like me hate DSG's because you cause straight men to question the existence of bisexuality and lesbianism. Because of your displays, they assume that when I kiss my girlfriend, it is for THEIR benefit and not because we are in a loving relationship. They also assume that we're purposely trying to turn them on, and get pissed off when we tell them, "No, you can't join us, and no, you can't watch. Fuck off." Yes, this really happens. So knock that shit off, or the next time a DSG approaches me and my gf I'm giving him your home address.
Another thing- who exactly are you making out with? If it's another DSG, fine- but do you know how many times I've been pussy teased by DSGs who I didn't know were DSGs? DSGs usually omit to mention they aren't actually gay. If you aren't sincere in your desire for me, if you are only going to make out with me and tease me, then stay the hell away. Bi girls and lesbians do not appreciate being hit on by DSGs and your boyfriend. In fact, it pisses us off. Get a fucking clue- you don't get to use people for your personal benefit and then leave them by the wayside. That is sincerely fucked up and selfish.
There you go- now you know why we hate you.
Another thing- who exactly are you making out with? If it's another DSG, fine- but do you know how many times I've been pussy teased by DSGs who I didn't know were DSGs? DSGs usually omit to mention they aren't actually gay. If you aren't sincere in your desire for me, if you are only going to make out with me and tease me, then stay the hell away. Bi girls and lesbians do not appreciate being hit on by DSGs and your boyfriend. In fact, it pisses us off. Get a fucking clue- you don't get to use people for your personal benefit and then leave them by the wayside. That is sincerely fucked up and selfish.
There you go- now you know why we hate you.
94
I have to disagree with Dan's response to the DSGs.
You are free to do what you like... including making out with women to put on a show for men. But that doesn't mean the act is "harmless" or that it doesn't reinforce objectification of (gay) women.
You are free to do what you like... including making out with women to put on a show for men. But that doesn't mean the act is "harmless" or that it doesn't reinforce objectification of (gay) women.
96
93: You should hate the people who question the existence of bisexuality and lesbianism, not the DSGs that they cling to as their flimsy excuse.
Read my posts to find out why! :D
Read my posts to find out why! :D
97
Dear @22,
With all due respect, DSGs do the same thing to guys as well. Sadly it's just par for the course.
Peace
With all due respect, DSGs do the same thing to guys as well. Sadly it's just par for the course.
Peace
99
"Straight guy here,"
IF I WERE YOU, I WOULD NOT APPROACH THE "bigger dude." Dan Savage TOLD YOU IF IT IS A DOMINANT/SUBMISSIVE SITUATION, THE "bigger dude" WOULD BE [sic], " ... too delighted to tell you about it." I DISAGREE BECAUSE THOSE MALES MAY LIKE THAT PARTICULAR GYM; AND THEY MAY BE CAPITALIZING ON THE STUPIDITY OF OTHER HETEROSEXUAL PATRONS. "Straight guy here," JUST BECAUSE IT SEEMED STRANGE TO YOU THAT A MALE WOULD TIE ANOTHER MALE'S SHOE, DOES NOT MEAN OTHERS IN THE GYM THOUGHT IT WAS STRANGE, OR, EVEN NOTICED IT.
"Straight guy here," MY POINT IS, THE "bigger dude" MAY BE PISSED AT YOU FOR CAUSING HIM TO MAYBE FIND ANOTHER GYM BECAUSE YOU HIGHLIGHTED HIS BUSINESS.
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
IF I WERE YOU, I WOULD NOT APPROACH THE "bigger dude." Dan Savage TOLD YOU IF IT IS A DOMINANT/SUBMISSIVE SITUATION, THE "bigger dude" WOULD BE [sic], " ... too delighted to tell you about it." I DISAGREE BECAUSE THOSE MALES MAY LIKE THAT PARTICULAR GYM; AND THEY MAY BE CAPITALIZING ON THE STUPIDITY OF OTHER HETEROSEXUAL PATRONS. "Straight guy here," JUST BECAUSE IT SEEMED STRANGE TO YOU THAT A MALE WOULD TIE ANOTHER MALE'S SHOE, DOES NOT MEAN OTHERS IN THE GYM THOUGHT IT WAS STRANGE, OR, EVEN NOTICED IT.
"Straight guy here," MY POINT IS, THE "bigger dude" MAY BE PISSED AT YOU FOR CAUSING HIM TO MAYBE FIND ANOTHER GYM BECAUSE YOU HIGHLIGHTED HIS BUSINESS.
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
100
Seriously people; how difficult is it so difficult to wrap your heads around the notion that straight men are responsible for their own misconceptions about lesbian women? Why is it ALWAYS necessary to dig up some excuse to blame other women?
I'd expect this kind of shit from beaten-down Mormon sisterwives, but not from self-described "out and proud" lesbians.
I'd expect this kind of shit from beaten-down Mormon sisterwives, but not from self-described "out and proud" lesbians.
101
"#22 - Ninalyn,"
MA'AM, FIRST I WANT TO SAY I RESPECT YOUR SITUATION. AND, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR READING THE ARTICLE CORRECTLY - I DID NOT.
Dan Savage WAS THE ONE WHO SAID [sic], " ... DSGs KISSIN' DSGs." "Drunk Straight Girl" DID NOT SAY THE GIRLS SHE IS KISSING ARE straight.
"Ninalyn," THIS IS A CRITICISM - NOT, OF YOU IN PARTICULAR. I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP FEELING A NEED TO SPEND MONEY ON SOMEONE HE/SHE JUST MET IN A CLUB. TO DO THAT SETS-UP A BAD PRECEDENT OF HOW MONEY IS TO BE SPENT - AND, BY WHOM - IF THAT RELATIONSHIP "BLOSSOMS."
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
MA'AM, FIRST I WANT TO SAY I RESPECT YOUR SITUATION. AND, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR READING THE ARTICLE CORRECTLY - I DID NOT.
Dan Savage WAS THE ONE WHO SAID [sic], " ... DSGs KISSIN' DSGs." "Drunk Straight Girl" DID NOT SAY THE GIRLS SHE IS KISSING ARE straight.
"Ninalyn," THIS IS A CRITICISM - NOT, OF YOU IN PARTICULAR. I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP FEELING A NEED TO SPEND MONEY ON SOMEONE HE/SHE JUST MET IN A CLUB. TO DO THAT SETS-UP A BAD PRECEDENT OF HOW MONEY IS TO BE SPENT - AND, BY WHOM - IF THAT RELATIONSHIP "BLOSSOMS."
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
102
"#32 - sadini,"
I DISAGREE WITH YOUR CRITICISM OF, "Ninalyn."
WHEN A PERSON TURNS TWENTY-ONE AND STARTS GOING TO CLUBS, HE/SHE OFTEN GO PLACES THEY MAY HAVE HEARD ARE "HOTSPOTS;" AND, THEIR COMPANIONS ARE PROBABLY HETEROSEXUAL. IF DRINKING CAUSES FEMALES TO "GET LOOSE" IN CLUBS, HOW DO YOU EXPECT A lesbian - like, "Ninalyn" - TO INTERPRET AN ADVANCE? IF THE SO-CALLED "straight girl" IS INEXPERIENCED AND THE true lesbian LIKES THE straight girl's QUALITIES, IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO "filter out douchebags."
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
I DISAGREE WITH YOUR CRITICISM OF, "Ninalyn."
WHEN A PERSON TURNS TWENTY-ONE AND STARTS GOING TO CLUBS, HE/SHE OFTEN GO PLACES THEY MAY HAVE HEARD ARE "HOTSPOTS;" AND, THEIR COMPANIONS ARE PROBABLY HETEROSEXUAL. IF DRINKING CAUSES FEMALES TO "GET LOOSE" IN CLUBS, HOW DO YOU EXPECT A lesbian - like, "Ninalyn" - TO INTERPRET AN ADVANCE? IF THE SO-CALLED "straight girl" IS INEXPERIENCED AND THE true lesbian LIKES THE straight girl's QUALITIES, IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO "filter out douchebags."
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
103
Now I'm sad, because I recall how we had the conversation about making out with somebody of one gender to attract somebody of another gender when the admirable Ms Canuck was still among us. I remember it was during this conversation that I was surprised to discover that she had previously been unaware of Jeffrey Buttle (native figure skating champions getting much better press in Canada than in the US, it was surprising that a Canadian wouldn't at least have known him by sight without having to look him up) as well as of Stephane Lambiel. I do miss Ms Canuck. She was one of the few straight people who actually stopped baiting trolls by calling them closeted once such conduct was pointed out as Not Very Nice.
Not much to add except to respond to:
[a lesbian who could not care less what straight ppl do in bars. and who can't really argue against the immaculate hotness of ladies making out. Everyone should enjoy that. Everything doesn't have to culminate in a wedding, this isn't Pride and Prejudice.]
I think Sense and Sensibility would be a better example. Could we change "everyone" to "all lovers of women"? (It occurs to me that I have not actually been in the company of a drunk straight woman since my sister's wedding, more than twenty years ago. My mother, whom I have seen drunk more often than any other woman, is perfectly free to make out with any other living creature she likes, but I never got on well enough with her ever to care to observe her in action.)
And most importantly, if the word has any meaning at all, this LW at the very least is NOT a lady. I shall not presume to judge conduct I have not seen by making a blanket condemnation of the activity, but suppose that, if the lack of respect and consideration for others manifested by outmaking DSGs is anything like what is suggested by the descriptions given, not a great many of them would qualify (nor, I suspect, would much of their target audience qualify for the corresponding golden G).
More...
Not much to add except to respond to:
[a lesbian who could not care less what straight ppl do in bars. and who can't really argue against the immaculate hotness of ladies making out. Everyone should enjoy that. Everything doesn't have to culminate in a wedding, this isn't Pride and Prejudice.]
I think Sense and Sensibility would be a better example. Could we change "everyone" to "all lovers of women"? (It occurs to me that I have not actually been in the company of a drunk straight woman since my sister's wedding, more than twenty years ago. My mother, whom I have seen drunk more often than any other woman, is perfectly free to make out with any other living creature she likes, but I never got on well enough with her ever to care to observe her in action.)
And most importantly, if the word has any meaning at all, this LW at the very least is NOT a lady. I shall not presume to judge conduct I have not seen by making a blanket condemnation of the activity, but suppose that, if the lack of respect and consideration for others manifested by outmaking DSGs is anything like what is suggested by the descriptions given, not a great many of them would qualify (nor, I suspect, would much of their target audience qualify for the corresponding golden G).
104
WTF? Lezzies are devoid of gaydar?
Paraphrase:
"I was dating this DSG for two months, then I realized she didn't care about me."
Paraphrase:
"I was dating this DSG for two months, then I realized she didn't care about me."
105
Dan,
Stick to the script-- "All men watch porn."
Even if they're 13.
Instead you're entitling this person to micro-manage her son's sex life.
I will agree to having shop-lifted porn when I was underaged, even tho otherwise I was pretty clean, except at Halloween.
Stick to the script-- "All men watch porn."
Even if they're 13.
Instead you're entitling this person to micro-manage her son's sex life.
I will agree to having shop-lifted porn when I was underaged, even tho otherwise I was pretty clean, except at Halloween.
106
Please can we not write in all caps? Its annoying and looks like you are shouting.
1. Sex toys are worth the investment even if they are expensive. Sharing butt plugs is gross.
2. 13 year old should not be watching porn. If he is he can find some for himself. Then throw a book by Ian Kerner at him when he turns 16.
3. DSG got what she wanted which was attention. Who cares what she does? Lesbians what a shame you hate on your own. We are all woman...are we not?
Instead of hating each other why don't we educate the men who seem to think sex belongs to them? Why not let women do as they please as equals instead of shaming them? Are we not all sisters?
Is it really about the drunk straight girl or about women's sexual freedom and expression?
Signed,
A real feminist
1. Sex toys are worth the investment even if they are expensive. Sharing butt plugs is gross.
2. 13 year old should not be watching porn. If he is he can find some for himself. Then throw a book by Ian Kerner at him when he turns 16.
3. DSG got what she wanted which was attention. Who cares what she does? Lesbians what a shame you hate on your own. We are all woman...are we not?
Instead of hating each other why don't we educate the men who seem to think sex belongs to them? Why not let women do as they please as equals instead of shaming them? Are we not all sisters?
Is it really about the drunk straight girl or about women's sexual freedom and expression?
Signed,
A real feminist
107
Skirt,
I'm sure it's tough. But he loves you, and you've known him all your life.
The advice I've heard about phone sex is the worst imaginable. This is an extremely expensive service, and conducted by people who don't care about your cousin or anyone else who calls the work number.
If you want to give him real help, try contacting cross-dressing groups in his area, who might be kind enough to invite him to group events like cook-outs, etc.
I'm sure it's tough. But he loves you, and you've known him all your life.
The advice I've heard about phone sex is the worst imaginable. This is an extremely expensive service, and conducted by people who don't care about your cousin or anyone else who calls the work number.
If you want to give him real help, try contacting cross-dressing groups in his area, who might be kind enough to invite him to group events like cook-outs, etc.
108
Comspicuous public making out, and for that matter public dom-sub scenarios, pretty much make you a douche. Don't involve strangers in your sex life.
109
To MMK:
Play the "do this for me & I will do this for you" game. You might want to add having him tie your hands behind your back, than have him take the hairbrush that you masturbate with, and have him wack your butt a few times than stick it in your pussy. That should get him interested & if it doesn't, than DTMF & find someone who will listen to what you have to say. I'm very sure you will find plenty of men willing to listen to your needs.
Play the "do this for me & I will do this for you" game. You might want to add having him tie your hands behind your back, than have him take the hairbrush that you masturbate with, and have him wack your butt a few times than stick it in your pussy. That should get him interested & if it doesn't, than DTMF & find someone who will listen to what you have to say. I'm very sure you will find plenty of men willing to listen to your needs.
110
Hey tech-savvy at-risk youth, I cannot access my magnum upgrade - I know my password and my email and I cannot get in!! When I do to reset is says I will receive "instructions on resetting my password," and I never receive a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g!!
I suppose this is why the HTML script on the Savage Love App sometimes shows up in the description of the show?? It is fine to get self-taught developers in-training, but now I have paid $20 and I want access to my purchase!!!
Thanks!
I suppose this is why the HTML script on the Savage Love App sometimes shows up in the description of the show?? It is fine to get self-taught developers in-training, but now I have paid $20 and I want access to my purchase!!!
Thanks!
111
@seandr, well, something is causing a shitload of young guys to need viagra just to get it up with someone real. Whether that is because their imaginations are stunted, or because their minds have gotten so desensitized to every time more extreme sexual situations depicted in porn, it detracts from real life arousal with real people. At least, there should be no question that parents have no business giving porn to their children, if not for the above then because it is just flat out creepy.
112
Well, I received my "instructions" and it tells me that I am already logged in!!! Grrrrrrr!!!
I am so frustrated right now!
I am so frustrated right now!
114
@111 viagra didn't exist before, so it's hard to compare then to now. Maybe men would always have liked a pharmaceutical erection guarantee, but it wasn't possible until now.
Are the young guys using viagra with their regular partners, or just with new people, where they might understandably be a bit nervous?
Are the young guys using viagra with their regular partners, or just with new people, where they might understandably be a bit nervous?
115
I have a physical disability that isn't visible, but causes poor fine motor control making it really hard to tie my shoes (and eat without spilling, and operate things with tiny buttons). I could stop wearing shoes with laces but I am stubborn. At home I will sit there for 5 minutes and tie my shoes, but if they come untied in public my husband will usually tie them for me.
Point is, maybe dude can't tie his shoes.
Also now I wonder how many people think we are doing some sort of D/s game.
Point is, maybe dude can't tie his shoes.
Also now I wonder how many people think we are doing some sort of D/s game.
116
BAFT's son simply needs to watch "Back to the Future", transmogrify himself into 1977, follow Dan's advice re the local 7-11, make half-hearted efforts to hide it from his mom, and frot the fuck out of other 12-year-olds like... well, like Dan, if the kid's near or can travel to Chicago.
117
@111 - As a guy that grew up in the porn bonanza of the internet age, I'm deeply skeptical that this is a huge, widespread problem. Neither my male, nor my female friends complain about it, and anecdotes and complaints about sex and relationships are common topics of conversation. I've definitely heard complaints from friends about guys trying crazy porn shit, though.
119
Hey all - I am the original 'DSG' LW and I would like to chime in on a couple things. First of all my letter was edited, and I will copy and paste the original from my gmail account at the end of my post. All those gratuitous exclamation points weren't mine.
I want to express that I feel for the women who have been misused or led on by other women who later leave them claiming to be straight. That has gotta suck. That is never my intention. That isn't me. I make out with women who know me well or when I am in a kink-friendly place where exhibitionism is expected and understood for what it is.
I would also like to echo what several posters (particularly 89) have said - I am not responsible for other's behavior. We are all adults and responsible for our own choices and perceptions. If a DSG is being overly forward, crude and disrespectful towards you that is on him. Not on me or his momma.
And 93 - Hate me? My home address? Who here is perpetuating violence?
Here is the original text of my letter:
I am one of those straight girls who occasionally likes to make out with other girls when I am drunk or when I am sober or when I am under the influence of substances that make it really fun to make out with people. It is fun to kiss girls. It is fun to get the attention of men by kissing girls. It is fun to make out with a guy and a girl at the same time. What is so wrong with that? Why are so many lesbians or bi women disparaging of this behavior? I don't claim to be bi or lead anyone on. I guess it could be said that my behavior could encourage men to objectify women kissing women, but I feel like that shouldn't be on me. Why all the hate? I am just an adult having sexy fun with other consenting adults. Thanks for everything you do. You make the world a safer and sexier place.
- that drunk straight chick
More...
I want to express that I feel for the women who have been misused or led on by other women who later leave them claiming to be straight. That has gotta suck. That is never my intention. That isn't me. I make out with women who know me well or when I am in a kink-friendly place where exhibitionism is expected and understood for what it is.
I would also like to echo what several posters (particularly 89) have said - I am not responsible for other's behavior. We are all adults and responsible for our own choices and perceptions. If a DSG is being overly forward, crude and disrespectful towards you that is on him. Not on me or his momma.
And 93 - Hate me? My home address? Who here is perpetuating violence?
Here is the original text of my letter:
I am one of those straight girls who occasionally likes to make out with other girls when I am drunk or when I am sober or when I am under the influence of substances that make it really fun to make out with people. It is fun to kiss girls. It is fun to get the attention of men by kissing girls. It is fun to make out with a guy and a girl at the same time. What is so wrong with that? Why are so many lesbians or bi women disparaging of this behavior? I don't claim to be bi or lead anyone on. I guess it could be said that my behavior could encourage men to objectify women kissing women, but I feel like that shouldn't be on me. Why all the hate? I am just an adult having sexy fun with other consenting adults. Thanks for everything you do. You make the world a safer and sexier place.
- that drunk straight chick
120
Wow. I could see editing for space, but changing periods to exclamation points? Oh, dear. If this charge turns out to be accurate, then I shall not consult Mr Savage personally whatever the cause in future. And I'm just about to go to bed, too. I hope I don't lose sleep over this; I've lost enough sleep this month.
121
DSG@119 (aka the LW herself) "I make out with women who know me well or when I am in a kink-friendly place where exhibitionism is expected and understood for what it is."
You go, girl!
You go, girl!
122
Parenting is really hard and I feel really sorry for that mom and also sorry but a little less so for her horny teenage son. Can't be fun for either of them. Assuming of course she's on her own and there is no dad in the picture. Because otherwise, ick.
@delta35: so this mom is very open with her son and vice versa it seems. You have so many suggestions on what people should read, yet you lack very basic comprehension. This mom is no different from one who might allow a sleepover and breakfast when this kid is 17 and remember how great an idea you thought that was? She took the phone (and laughing stock?seriously?)and is now asking how to get her son access to a little soft-core without actually having to hand it to him. Reading books or studies on parenting is not parenting and please stop suggesting we read your stupid books or studies. We don't have time. Do I need to explain why?
@delta35: so this mom is very open with her son and vice versa it seems. You have so many suggestions on what people should read, yet you lack very basic comprehension. This mom is no different from one who might allow a sleepover and breakfast when this kid is 17 and remember how great an idea you thought that was? She took the phone (and laughing stock?seriously?)and is now asking how to get her son access to a little soft-core without actually having to hand it to him. Reading books or studies on parenting is not parenting and please stop suggesting we read your stupid books or studies. We don't have time. Do I need to explain why?
123
I think maybe Dan edits to encourage discussion between us commenters. Everything left out of DSG's letter was brought up by us(well, you guys) and my guess is that was the point. Also he may have wanted to make a point out if the fact that her problem isn't really one. And her original letter made her sound much less lame so no fun for commenters there. Dan's just giving us what we want.
124
(DSG LW again) I agree with 123 and I am not all that bothered by the fact my letter was altered. They way Dan presented it was way more effective at stirring up conversation. None of you know who I am so ultimately it doesn't matter if I come across as lame in the published letter! And I do totally acknowledge that it not a 'problem' on the same scale as many other readers letters- more of a gripe or conversation point.
And just as I am not responsible for other's attitudes or actions with my make-out fun your opinions and statements are ultimately reflections of yourselves and not my person.
And just as I am not responsible for other's attitudes or actions with my make-out fun your opinions and statements are ultimately reflections of yourselves and not my person.
125
Makes sense for the kid to have a dumb phone. Life already gave him a dumb mother.
Stay the fuck out of the kid's masturbation and stop trying to protect him from things you can't EVER protect him from. Dropbox. Flash drives. Even if you censor his home internet you can't censor all his friend's internet access.
Stay the fuck out of the kid's masturbation and stop trying to protect him from things you can't EVER protect him from. Dropbox. Flash drives. Even if you censor his home internet you can't censor all his friend's internet access.
126
@69 and 83 - Yeah, they may just be a poor match, and better to find out now.
But somehow, MMK & her boyfriend remind me of the old joke about the Sadist and the Masochist:
Masochist says, "Oh, beat me, beat me!"
Sadist says, "No!"
But somehow, MMK & her boyfriend remind me of the old joke about the Sadist and the Masochist:
Masochist says, "Oh, beat me, beat me!"
Sadist says, "No!"
127
DSG: What's so wrong with what you're doing is that you're a pussy tease. Limit your snogging to OTHER straight girls -- girls who DON'T actually want to have sex with you -- and you'll be fine. Pretending to seduce bi or gay women for the sole benefit of male onlookers is completely disregarding the feelings and desires of the women you're using for your own selfish ego-boosting. Make sense now?
128
@119, thanks for coming back to give us some more insight into your letter. I agree there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, and probably nothing wrong with what most DSGs do either. My objective brain knows this. About 80% of drunk straight girls making out are probably just engaging in some consensual sexy fun that doesn't lead to any false expectations from anyone.
I'd just like to address a comment to you, though, and to all the others saying "people should just act how they want because how people perceive it isn't their responsibility".
It is unfair that your actions might be perceived in this way. I get it, okay? You're not trying to undermine anyone's sexuality and you, personally, are not doing anyone any harm. So, yeah, in an ideal world we'd all just say "fuck it, do what you want and let people see what they wanna see". It's not right that your actions should be symptomatic of a culture that is damaging to so many people.
But that doesn't mean they're not. My dad has a phrase he likes to get out for situations like this: "It's not your fault, but it is your problem." In the same way that it's not my fault that men whoop and cheer if they see me kissing a girlfriend. I should be able to kiss my partners without people feeling entitled to give me their input into the situation. That's not my fault. But I do have to deal with it. Similarly, it is not the fault of the men of today that it is the instinct of a lot of women to keep them at arm's length until they're sure they're not predators. You personally didn't oppress women for centuries, right? Not your fault. But it is your problem.
The fact that drunk straight girls making out in bars contributes to a culture that trivialises lesbianism and female bisexuality as "performing for men" is not the fault of the individual drunk straight girl. But it is her problem. I'm not saying that means you shouldn't do it, but maybe try to be aware of the cultural context of what you're doing, and either confine it to understanding spaces (as DSG @119 seems, in fairness, to be doing) or be a bit more understanding when it pisses queer women off.
Whoo, sorry, that got long.
More...
I'd just like to address a comment to you, though, and to all the others saying "people should just act how they want because how people perceive it isn't their responsibility".
It is unfair that your actions might be perceived in this way. I get it, okay? You're not trying to undermine anyone's sexuality and you, personally, are not doing anyone any harm. So, yeah, in an ideal world we'd all just say "fuck it, do what you want and let people see what they wanna see". It's not right that your actions should be symptomatic of a culture that is damaging to so many people.
But that doesn't mean they're not. My dad has a phrase he likes to get out for situations like this: "It's not your fault, but it is your problem." In the same way that it's not my fault that men whoop and cheer if they see me kissing a girlfriend. I should be able to kiss my partners without people feeling entitled to give me their input into the situation. That's not my fault. But I do have to deal with it. Similarly, it is not the fault of the men of today that it is the instinct of a lot of women to keep them at arm's length until they're sure they're not predators. You personally didn't oppress women for centuries, right? Not your fault. But it is your problem.
The fact that drunk straight girls making out in bars contributes to a culture that trivialises lesbianism and female bisexuality as "performing for men" is not the fault of the individual drunk straight girl. But it is her problem. I'm not saying that means you shouldn't do it, but maybe try to be aware of the cultural context of what you're doing, and either confine it to understanding spaces (as DSG @119 seems, in fairness, to be doing) or be a bit more understanding when it pisses queer women off.
Whoo, sorry, that got long.
130
Whaaaat?? Savage, your advice for DSG doesn't line up with advice you've given to others in her shoes... Like when you ripped on the girl who puked in that other girl's bed a few months ago.
Also, I don't believe that this chick is straight!
Also, I don't believe that this chick is straight!
131
Wow, Dan, you were really easy-going on BBTB there. She thinks porn is *oppressing* women?? I suppose she thinks it's less oppressive in countries where women are forced to behave modestly or get stoned to death. What she should do, IMO (and what I was expecting you to tell her, as you've told many others) is explain to her son that porn is kabuki sex and the real thing won't be like that, and then encourage him - without pressuring him - to come to her with questions. And then go out and buy him some friggin' Playboys - Playboy is more erotica than porn anyway, it's tasteful and even artistic in its way. My husband has a trunk full of old Playboys and I like to look through them myself from time to time.
132
Even the original letter doesn't seem entirely in keeping with the clarification @119. The clarification reads as if DSG (as opposed to the LW, which I'll use to refer to the character created by whoever did the editing of the original letter) has read and absorbed Ms Erica's Guide to Being a Good DSG. While "I don't claim to be bi or lead anyone on," is an improvement over the LW, it doesn't quite reach the Ms Erica level.
As for a comparison of the two letters and the edit:
I have no problem with the editing of the first sentence. Three sentences are then merged into one with an exclamation point added. "It is fun to kiss girls," could have been merged into the LW's sentence to keep it as part of the context, and to centre the fun of the activity over the fun of getting attention. I can see cutting the third sentence, even though it adds even more context than the first one, because it just feels a half-tone out of sync and I can't think of an easy fix.
The two questions that follow, though unchanged, lead the commentariat down the LW's path rather than DSG's. This is greatly assisted by the elimination of DSG's claim not to present as bi or lead anyone on. Then there are minor wording changes as one sentence is made two, with a second added exclamation point. A third additional exclamation point is the only remaining change beyond omitting an unrelated closing for space.
I admit to a distinct admiration for the skill of the editing; the exclamation points say a great deal about the character of the LW. What they say happens to make the LW out to be rather different from DSG, which may or may not bother one. In 119, it appears to bother DSG. Then she returns in 124 and reverses course.
Naturally, a great many comments responded to the LW. Had DSG wanted those commenting to respond to at least the situation in her original letter, she'd have been cheated. That she apparently in 124 only wanted to help stir up conversation more or less absolves the editor here, though an Exclamationgate Scandal might have proved to be considerably entertaining as the flying fickle finger of blame floated from Mr Savage Himself to any of a number of subordinates. I even wondered in the night if we could hold an impeachment, and who the Vice Savage might happen to be to be promoted should Mr S find it expedient to resign. Or perhaps he would prove never to have seen the letter in its original form; there are a number of what Ellery Queen might call Sinister Scenarios possible.
However, if I were ever in circumstances that would tempt me to consult Mr Savage, I should very much want the comments to be directed towards my real self and not a straw persona concocted by Mr S or, rather worse (as there would be some cachet in being edited personally into coming across as an inconsiderate and disrespectful flaunter of privilege if Mr Savage did so personally), a mere underling or - shudder - an unpaid intern. (DSG herself seems a bit confused, as she sometimes appreciates the difference between herself and the LW and other times seems to interpret comments about the LW as being directed at her.) I'd feel quite ill used if I were edited into coming across as an unsympathetic laughing stock or dart board, cheated out of legitimate first responses from many people who occasionally or more often provide commentary worth reading and contemplating.
More...
As for a comparison of the two letters and the edit:
I have no problem with the editing of the first sentence. Three sentences are then merged into one with an exclamation point added. "It is fun to kiss girls," could have been merged into the LW's sentence to keep it as part of the context, and to centre the fun of the activity over the fun of getting attention. I can see cutting the third sentence, even though it adds even more context than the first one, because it just feels a half-tone out of sync and I can't think of an easy fix.
The two questions that follow, though unchanged, lead the commentariat down the LW's path rather than DSG's. This is greatly assisted by the elimination of DSG's claim not to present as bi or lead anyone on. Then there are minor wording changes as one sentence is made two, with a second added exclamation point. A third additional exclamation point is the only remaining change beyond omitting an unrelated closing for space.
I admit to a distinct admiration for the skill of the editing; the exclamation points say a great deal about the character of the LW. What they say happens to make the LW out to be rather different from DSG, which may or may not bother one. In 119, it appears to bother DSG. Then she returns in 124 and reverses course.
Naturally, a great many comments responded to the LW. Had DSG wanted those commenting to respond to at least the situation in her original letter, she'd have been cheated. That she apparently in 124 only wanted to help stir up conversation more or less absolves the editor here, though an Exclamationgate Scandal might have proved to be considerably entertaining as the flying fickle finger of blame floated from Mr Savage Himself to any of a number of subordinates. I even wondered in the night if we could hold an impeachment, and who the Vice Savage might happen to be to be promoted should Mr S find it expedient to resign. Or perhaps he would prove never to have seen the letter in its original form; there are a number of what Ellery Queen might call Sinister Scenarios possible.
However, if I were ever in circumstances that would tempt me to consult Mr Savage, I should very much want the comments to be directed towards my real self and not a straw persona concocted by Mr S or, rather worse (as there would be some cachet in being edited personally into coming across as an inconsiderate and disrespectful flaunter of privilege if Mr Savage did so personally), a mere underling or - shudder - an unpaid intern. (DSG herself seems a bit confused, as she sometimes appreciates the difference between herself and the LW and other times seems to interpret comments about the LW as being directed at her.) I'd feel quite ill used if I were edited into coming across as an unsympathetic laughing stock or dart board, cheated out of legitimate first responses from many people who occasionally or more often provide commentary worth reading and contemplating.
133
@96,
Sure, it would be nice to throw all of the responsibility back on the men. However, you can't really send out mixed messages -- gay women exist! but I'm only kissing this woman to turn you on! -- and expect someone to not internalize the contradiction. Again, it comes down to -- sure the DSGs can do what they want. They don't, however, get to deny that their behavior reinforces patriarchal norms.
Sure, it would be nice to throw all of the responsibility back on the men. However, you can't really send out mixed messages -- gay women exist! but I'm only kissing this woman to turn you on! -- and expect someone to not internalize the contradiction. Again, it comes down to -- sure the DSGs can do what they want. They don't, however, get to deny that their behavior reinforces patriarchal norms.
134
If I were a lesbian looking for love, and some girl wanted to make out with me, I would assume I was getting lucky. Then when I found out it was just for her to get someone else, I would be ticked. Not only did I waste my time on someone who did not actually reciprocate, but I could have been focusing on someone else and gotten some that night. Soooo, unless DSG is announcing that she just wants to make out to catch a guys' eye prior to the kissing, she sounds self-centered to me.
135
@Mr, Ven, DSGLW, and others:
This is an interesting question/conundrum. Clearly, one of the main objectives in running an advice column is to provide entertainment. Dan must choose letters based on a number of factors including the originality of the problem, the opportunity to educate (or rant), the potential for interesting or enlightening debate/conversation, and probably above all, the letter's inherent ability to entertain his readers and increase readership.
So I understand Dan's or his editor's preference or tendency to edit not only for clarity or conciseness, or to bring the letter into compliance with the grammatical and syntactic conventions of standard written English, but to manipulate the original into a form that will generate more comments or foment more spirited discussion.
But.
Some edits substantially change the tone of the letter, or misrepresent the intention of the original in ways that seem to go beyond that level of editing. And that seems unethical to me.
This is an interesting question/conundrum. Clearly, one of the main objectives in running an advice column is to provide entertainment. Dan must choose letters based on a number of factors including the originality of the problem, the opportunity to educate (or rant), the potential for interesting or enlightening debate/conversation, and probably above all, the letter's inherent ability to entertain his readers and increase readership.
So I understand Dan's or his editor's preference or tendency to edit not only for clarity or conciseness, or to bring the letter into compliance with the grammatical and syntactic conventions of standard written English, but to manipulate the original into a form that will generate more comments or foment more spirited discussion.
But.
Some edits substantially change the tone of the letter, or misrepresent the intention of the original in ways that seem to go beyond that level of editing. And that seems unethical to me.
136
PLUG: Where is Richard Pryor when you need him? (talking about the guy who makes stupid jokes and the last line is always "and the dick fell out!")
137
Encouraging shoplifting? Really? Most convenience stores keep that stuff behind the counter. But, seriously, shoplifting is stealing and it is taken seriously by stores and you can wind up with a juvenile record if you are caught. Not worth it. Get it from an older friend or relative.
I tend to agree that a 13-year-old doesn't need a smartphone. They're a huge, huge distraction at most schools. But making an issue out of internet porn? No. "Don't steal." "Don't take advantage of people." "Don't deliberately hurt people or animals." Provided the kid has those solidly internalized, he or she hopefully has the brains to apply them to sexual situations as needed.
I tend to agree that a 13-year-old doesn't need a smartphone. They're a huge, huge distraction at most schools. But making an issue out of internet porn? No. "Don't steal." "Don't take advantage of people." "Don't deliberately hurt people or animals." Provided the kid has those solidly internalized, he or she hopefully has the brains to apply them to sexual situations as needed.
139
God, I'm amazed at how many "open-minded" people are ready to blame women for men's actions again.
@93 Seriously, @93? A guy acts as a jerk to you and your gf and this girl is somehow to blame? This argument is on par with saying that women dressing immodestly cause men to become rapists.
@Ninalyn You go to such great lengths to explain one person's stupidity/douchebaggery/whatever by another's actions that my head is spinning. Oh noes, you have a tough dating history. Wow, what a unique story! You've met some guys and girls who are jerks, insane! No one else has. Poor, poor you. Of course it's all because you are gay. No man (or woman) has ever been a jerk to a straight girl. You and a bunch of other lesbians are the only people in the world to have experienced sexism and homophobia. And it's all because of those drunk girls!!!1! Sheesh.
@93 Seriously, @93? A guy acts as a jerk to you and your gf and this girl is somehow to blame? This argument is on par with saying that women dressing immodestly cause men to become rapists.
@Ninalyn You go to such great lengths to explain one person's stupidity/douchebaggery/whatever by another's actions that my head is spinning. Oh noes, you have a tough dating history. Wow, what a unique story! You've met some guys and girls who are jerks, insane! No one else has. Poor, poor you. Of course it's all because you are gay. No man (or woman) has ever been a jerk to a straight girl. You and a bunch of other lesbians are the only people in the world to have experienced sexism and homophobia. And it's all because of those drunk girls!!!1! Sheesh.
140
133: It's not just "nice" to hold these men responsible for their own actions; it's accurate.
There are men who feel like every woman's nice ass, or skimpy outfit, or big rack (etc), is "for" them. This isn't caused by women having nice asses, skimpy outfits, or big racks.
Similarly, men who feel like they're entitled to witness every lesbian makeout session are just one more example of this. Making out with other girls to impress guys is just one of many quasi-sexual activities that people have a right to enjoy. It doesn't cause entitlement any more than giving blowjobs "causes" men to feel entitled to blowjobs. DSGs aren’t communicating that “lesbianism is ‘for’ men” any more than a blowjob communicates that “women’s mouths are ‘for’ men.” It’s his own fault if he leaps to faulty, sexist, entitled conclusions about women based on a night’s activities. This entitlement is simply one manifestation of a much broader culture of entitlement that has little to do with DSGs specifically.
To blame the DSGs is like blaming women who wear skimpy outfits or women who give blowjobs for the entitlement that (sexist) men feel over women's bodies in general. It inaccurately shifts the blame away from the cultural forces and sexists who are actually responsible for such attitudes.
It's nothing more than deflection and slut-shaming, and you may want to examine that more closely before you lecture anyone else on which behaviors reinforce patriarchal norms.
There are men who feel like every woman's nice ass, or skimpy outfit, or big rack (etc), is "for" them. This isn't caused by women having nice asses, skimpy outfits, or big racks.
Similarly, men who feel like they're entitled to witness every lesbian makeout session are just one more example of this. Making out with other girls to impress guys is just one of many quasi-sexual activities that people have a right to enjoy. It doesn't cause entitlement any more than giving blowjobs "causes" men to feel entitled to blowjobs. DSGs aren’t communicating that “lesbianism is ‘for’ men” any more than a blowjob communicates that “women’s mouths are ‘for’ men.” It’s his own fault if he leaps to faulty, sexist, entitled conclusions about women based on a night’s activities. This entitlement is simply one manifestation of a much broader culture of entitlement that has little to do with DSGs specifically.
To blame the DSGs is like blaming women who wear skimpy outfits or women who give blowjobs for the entitlement that (sexist) men feel over women's bodies in general. It inaccurately shifts the blame away from the cultural forces and sexists who are actually responsible for such attitudes.
It's nothing more than deflection and slut-shaming, and you may want to examine that more closely before you lecture anyone else on which behaviors reinforce patriarchal norms.
141
@DSGLW I'm kinda wondering what other kind of response you were looking for here.
You asked "Why all the hate?" and disparagement from bisexuals and lesbians, of course you're getting hate and hate-like comments here. Some of us are attempting to explain why others might hate/disparage, some are just giving their own reasons. Why all the surprise?
If we had a DSB asking why lesbians get mad at him for saying "two chicks is hottt!" we'd be telling him why they were mad with him. Instead, we have a DSG asking "why do lesbians get mad at me?" so of course the responses are "this is why someone might be unhappy with what you do".
You asked "Why all the hate?" and disparagement from bisexuals and lesbians, of course you're getting hate and hate-like comments here. Some of us are attempting to explain why others might hate/disparage, some are just giving their own reasons. Why all the surprise?
If we had a DSB asking why lesbians get mad at him for saying "two chicks is hottt!" we'd be telling him why they were mad with him. Instead, we have a DSG asking "why do lesbians get mad at me?" so of course the responses are "this is why someone might be unhappy with what you do".
142
For DSG: the way the LW explained how she does it in her comment...well, I don't really have a problem with it. It does make me a little uncomfortable because it does reinforce terrible stereotypes about lesbian and bi women, but as long as everyone involved knows what's going on, I don't really care that much.
I had a bad experience with a DSG once that left me pretty negative towards that kind of behavior though. I made out with a woman in a gay bar a few years ago only to find out that she was there with her boyfriend, and he was watching us and getting turned on by it. It made me incredibly uncomfortable because I felt like I'd been made an unwilling participant in their sex life. And I mean I know anyone can watch when you do something like that in public...but the fact that she was making out with me for the express purpose of turning on her boyfriend made it really gross. It had nothing to do with her "leading me on" or anything--if she'd been a straight girl who just wanted to experiment for her own benefit, I wouldn't have cared. That it happened in a gay bar, somewhere where there's a reasonable expectation of being able to make out with other ladies and not have creepy straight guys treating it like a free show, made it worse. I felt really violated.
So I do have a bit of a knee-jerk anti-DSG response because of that experience. Not fair I guess, but I just don't trust 'em.
I had a bad experience with a DSG once that left me pretty negative towards that kind of behavior though. I made out with a woman in a gay bar a few years ago only to find out that she was there with her boyfriend, and he was watching us and getting turned on by it. It made me incredibly uncomfortable because I felt like I'd been made an unwilling participant in their sex life. And I mean I know anyone can watch when you do something like that in public...but the fact that she was making out with me for the express purpose of turning on her boyfriend made it really gross. It had nothing to do with her "leading me on" or anything--if she'd been a straight girl who just wanted to experiment for her own benefit, I wouldn't have cared. That it happened in a gay bar, somewhere where there's a reasonable expectation of being able to make out with other ladies and not have creepy straight guys treating it like a free show, made it worse. I felt really violated.
So I do have a bit of a knee-jerk anti-DSG response because of that experience. Not fair I guess, but I just don't trust 'em.
143
"#127 - BiDanFan,"
THE "Original DSG" EXPLAINED HERSELF IN Comment #119. YOU MISREAD HER COMMENTARY.
"Original DSG" NEVER TYPED SHE INTENTIONALLY KISSES lesbians AND bisexual females. IF "CLOSETED" FEMALES LIKE TO PARTY AT HETEROSEXUAL "HOT-SPOTS," THAT IS NOT "Original DSG's" PROBLEM.
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
THE "Original DSG" EXPLAINED HERSELF IN Comment #119. YOU MISREAD HER COMMENTARY.
"Original DSG" NEVER TYPED SHE INTENTIONALLY KISSES lesbians AND bisexual females. IF "CLOSETED" FEMALES LIKE TO PARTY AT HETEROSEXUAL "HOT-SPOTS," THAT IS NOT "Original DSG's" PROBLEM.
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
144
A thought for BBTB, for a way she can *discreetly* get her son a few Playboys.
Go to a yard sale (without him). Get a few new-ish magazines (or just buy some from a used book store, if you can't find a yard sale with magazines). Then go buy a Playboy or 2 (used, if you can find any at a used bookstore, so they'll be the same age as the other magazines). Tell your son that you bought a box of magazines at a yard sale, and tell him to look through and take any that he wants. Don't watch as he takes the Playboys...
Go to a yard sale (without him). Get a few new-ish magazines (or just buy some from a used book store, if you can't find a yard sale with magazines). Then go buy a Playboy or 2 (used, if you can find any at a used bookstore, so they'll be the same age as the other magazines). Tell your son that you bought a box of magazines at a yard sale, and tell him to look through and take any that he wants. Don't watch as he takes the Playboys...
145
can we all agree that CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON needs to go a bit easier on the capslock key?
It is more difficult than normal writing to read, and in this day and age is interpreted as yelling and rude. Please reserve all-caps for emphasis
It is more difficult than normal writing to read, and in this day and age is interpreted as yelling and rude. Please reserve all-caps for emphasis
146
I'm so confused. Thank god I don't go to bars, I would just make a hash of all the rules. They seem very complicated. Although I get the one about boobs being awesome, that's pretty straightforward.
147
One quick note:
Most "dumb phones" allow you internet access, which makes BBTB a really dumb mom.
Most "dumb phones" allow you internet access, which makes BBTB a really dumb mom.
148
You can get "dumb phones" without a data plan though, so while the phone itself is capable of accessing the internet, your phone plan won't allow it. I'm pretty sure all smart phones require a data plan (every one I've had does, anyway).
149
In my experience, "without a data plan" means "per unit of data charge", which only makes internet access exorbitantly expensive.
150
@EricaP has a good idea, in a phone sex hotline, though nobody deserves the emotional distance that comes with those, and the idea of paying for that shit, no matter who's paying, just sucks, and is degrading, more than sucking. I would have thought that Dan would have had a better answer for this. Has he been asked a similar question? If he's able to help people with the dom/sub, butt plug, teen sex questions week after week, all non-essential (as far as this heterosexual dick-to-vagina virgin knows), he should at least try to help a person who's been sexually harassed in the most reasonable way (you know, in that she feels his tone is vaguely sexual, so it's barely sexual harassment, therefore reasonable) for the most reasonable reason - by someone who has assumedly had little to no sexual experience (at least recently), besides dressing up. In this wide world, there has to be something for him, and it's great that he has an open therapist. That therapist should be able to help him and give advice for an outlet, so SKIRT should get into contact with that therapist, which would be more rewarding than the outcome of this letter. Sex Surrogacy exists, but I've found the only system for it, as it is technically illegal, is in California. I'm sure SKIRT's cousin can find someone nobly, and any therapist should be able to help. I mean, there is a place for the mentally disabled on online dating sites. Just, once you find a girl who has some sexual connection to a mentally disabled cross-dresser, just hope that she has her own place.
Then again, even though there's a lot of fascinating detail already presented in this letter, there's not even enough - what kind of mental disability (cross-dressing itself better not be considered that in that town)? Is the therapist Christian? If so, interesting...
One solution would be to move, but it'd be very understandable if the biggest change he can make is of clothes.
I really feel for SKIRT, and hope she finds answers, but I also would like to see Dan Savage have a good answer for this in the future, because if he had the knowledge and the care and connection, he would give a great answer.
More...
Then again, even though there's a lot of fascinating detail already presented in this letter, there's not even enough - what kind of mental disability (cross-dressing itself better not be considered that in that town)? Is the therapist Christian? If so, interesting...
One solution would be to move, but it'd be very understandable if the biggest change he can make is of clothes.
I really feel for SKIRT, and hope she finds answers, but I also would like to see Dan Savage have a good answer for this in the future, because if he had the knowledge and the care and connection, he would give a great answer.
151
Ms Cute - Basically agreed on all points. It also explains why Mr Savage is not averse to running the odd fake letter if one gets through into the column or the SLLOTD.
I suppose, given DSG's attitude, this one gets chalked up as No Harm, No Foul, and it's certainly not a hill on which I have any intention of dying or even falling moderately ill, but I have no intention of consulting somebody who might well choose to have fun changing 20% of my letter to make me sound like Dr Sean or Mr Horton (just to think of two people off the top of my head with whom I have the least in common). Fortunately for the commentariat, there is no masterpiece being lost here, as, being Retired from Romance, the only conceivable question I might ever want to ask Mr Savage would require my being left custody of my nephews, an event of which the chance of occurrence is not much greater than the chance of my succeeding to the throne of the Netherlands.
I suppose, given DSG's attitude, this one gets chalked up as No Harm, No Foul, and it's certainly not a hill on which I have any intention of dying or even falling moderately ill, but I have no intention of consulting somebody who might well choose to have fun changing 20% of my letter to make me sound like Dr Sean or Mr Horton (just to think of two people off the top of my head with whom I have the least in common). Fortunately for the commentariat, there is no masterpiece being lost here, as, being Retired from Romance, the only conceivable question I might ever want to ask Mr Savage would require my being left custody of my nephews, an event of which the chance of occurrence is not much greater than the chance of my succeeding to the throne of the Netherlands.
152
"#144 - Melissa Trible,"
I MUST REALLY BE GETTING OLD. WHY WOULD A MASTURBATORY BOY WANT TO VIEW A STILL PHOTO OF A NUDE FEMALE WHEN PREMIUM CABLE SHOWS NUDE FEMALES IN MOTION?
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
I MUST REALLY BE GETTING OLD. WHY WOULD A MASTURBATORY BOY WANT TO VIEW A STILL PHOTO OF A NUDE FEMALE WHEN PREMIUM CABLE SHOWS NUDE FEMALES IN MOTION?
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
153
PEOPLE, WHY DO I SCARE Y'ALL?
WHEN Y'ALL MAKE COMMENTS, THEY APPEAR IN RAPID SUCCESSION. BUT, WHEN I MAKE COMMENTARY EVERYONE RUNS AWAY. OF COURSE - IN THE ONLINE WORLD - I KNOW I AM PROBABLY THE MOST HATED MALE HOMOSEXUAL ON THE PLANET. LET US SEE - I HAVE STATED HOMOSEXUALS IN UGANDA AND IRAN SHOULD BE EXECUTED, SUICIDE IS A PROBLEM FOR ADOLESCENT/TEENAGE CAUCASIAN-HOMOSEXUALS ONLY AND I OPPOSE SAME-SEX MARRIAGE AND HOMOSEXUAL ADOPTION OF CHILDREN.
BUT, SOMEBODY IS FUCKIN' LYIN'! I HAVE SEARCHED MY NAME ON Dogpile, Excite, Google AND Yahoo! MyStrangerFace Link IS THE FIRST LINK IN EVERY CASE. I WILL NEVER BELIEVE EVERYONE WHO HAS LOOKED AT THAT LINK IS HETEROSEXUAL.
LIKE ME, OR, HATE ME - RUNNING FROM ME INDICATES HETEROSEXUALS ARE NOT THE ONES WITH A PROBLEM.
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
WHEN Y'ALL MAKE COMMENTS, THEY APPEAR IN RAPID SUCCESSION. BUT, WHEN I MAKE COMMENTARY EVERYONE RUNS AWAY. OF COURSE - IN THE ONLINE WORLD - I KNOW I AM PROBABLY THE MOST HATED MALE HOMOSEXUAL ON THE PLANET. LET US SEE - I HAVE STATED HOMOSEXUALS IN UGANDA AND IRAN SHOULD BE EXECUTED, SUICIDE IS A PROBLEM FOR ADOLESCENT/TEENAGE CAUCASIAN-HOMOSEXUALS ONLY AND I OPPOSE SAME-SEX MARRIAGE AND HOMOSEXUAL ADOPTION OF CHILDREN.
BUT, SOMEBODY IS FUCKIN' LYIN'! I HAVE SEARCHED MY NAME ON Dogpile, Excite, Google AND Yahoo! MyStrangerFace Link IS THE FIRST LINK IN EVERY CASE. I WILL NEVER BELIEVE EVERYONE WHO HAS LOOKED AT THAT LINK IS HETEROSEXUAL.
LIKE ME, OR, HATE ME - RUNNING FROM ME INDICATES HETEROSEXUALS ARE NOT THE ONES WITH A PROBLEM.
CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
154
does no one else find it COMPLETELY weird to ask your MOM to buy you porn?!
That is incredibly creepy. I have a very close relationship with my parents, but that sounds really inappropriate. Also, how uptight is this mom that she thinks teen boys won't find a way to look at porn/fuck teen girls?
That is incredibly creepy. I have a very close relationship with my parents, but that sounds really inappropriate. Also, how uptight is this mom that she thinks teen boys won't find a way to look at porn/fuck teen girls?
155
Something just struck me.
DSGs who like to pointlessly mess around with other girls for the sake of messing around are a minor issue. They're not exactly fuzzy goodwill ambassadors to sapphos when they say things like "I'll fuck a girl, but I won't date one", but lesbians have kind of adjusted to that.
DSGs who mess around for attention are being attention whores and exhibitionists. That might be okay in specific venues, but it's generally considered bad form.
While it's not a perfect science, most people are quite capable of spotting attention whoring when it's happening.
DSGs who like to pointlessly mess around with other girls for the sake of messing around are a minor issue. They're not exactly fuzzy goodwill ambassadors to sapphos when they say things like "I'll fuck a girl, but I won't date one", but lesbians have kind of adjusted to that.
DSGs who mess around for attention are being attention whores and exhibitionists. That might be okay in specific venues, but it's generally considered bad form.
While it's not a perfect science, most people are quite capable of spotting attention whoring when it's happening.
156
OMFG a bunch of letters worth the read but I think I smell rotting fish on the 13 year old boy and Playboy unless Dan dug this one up from the archives of letters of yesterday, Playboy really?
157
@ 19 Um, no. It's pretty common for most women.
A lot of women need and appreciate a guy who doesn't assume that she'll enjoy sex without any warm-up (or hell, is not even all that concerned with whether or not she even enjoys sex with him). Besides, it is probably easier to tell a guy that you DON't need foreplay than to have to tell a guy that you DO need foreplay.
A lot of women need and appreciate a guy who doesn't assume that she'll enjoy sex without any warm-up (or hell, is not even all that concerned with whether or not she even enjoys sex with him). Besides, it is probably easier to tell a guy that you DON't need foreplay than to have to tell a guy that you DO need foreplay.
158
I have been absent from The Stranger for a while. Would someone like to fill me in on what CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON'S deal is? But please, not the man himself. Reading anything he posts makes my eyes water.
I just want to say that my butt plugs are my butt plugs, and I don't intend to share them. If my husband wants a butt plug or two, he can go online and buy some at the Kitten. If that makes me selfish, so be it.
I just want to say that my butt plugs are my butt plugs, and I don't intend to share them. If my husband wants a butt plug or two, he can go online and buy some at the Kitten. If that makes me selfish, so be it.
159
@buffy
Some of us are just exhausted of having women loudly proclaim that... essentially we're fictional. Feminists go on and on about how unrealistic porn is and how it paints a picture of a woman who doesn't exist.
Real women don't look like this.
Real women don't enjoy that.
Real women don't do this.
Real women don't...
It's irritating as fuck to (as a real human being) be painted as a straw(wo)man male fantasy concocted by women-haters.
Ugh.
Some of us are just exhausted of having women loudly proclaim that... essentially we're fictional. Feminists go on and on about how unrealistic porn is and how it paints a picture of a woman who doesn't exist.
Real women don't look like this.
Real women don't enjoy that.
Real women don't do this.
Real women don't...
It's irritating as fuck to (as a real human being) be painted as a straw(wo)man male fantasy concocted by women-haters.
Ugh.
160
For those who are questioning why women are attacking the DSGs instead of the men who ogle them--we are. I've gotten confrontational with the men who ogle me and my lady friend of choice while we're doing our thing. But this is directed at a DSG, who thinks she's not doing anything wrong. And while I don't think there's anything morally wrong about it, but it's fucking hard to yell at men for assuming that two women making out are doing it for their pleasure when there's some chick running around doing exactly that.
And, again, it's just fucking tacky and cheap. Learn to knot a cherry stem with your tongue. Memorize a bawdy poem. Make yourself fucking interesting.
And, again, it's just fucking tacky and cheap. Learn to knot a cherry stem with your tongue. Memorize a bawdy poem. Make yourself fucking interesting.
161
@Mr. Venn, Jeffery Buttle and Stephane Lambiel are amazing, two of my favorite skaters (and Lambiel is HOT). No way I could root for the home team (I'm in the U.S.) when either one of them competed against Johnny Weir.
162
Good lord, all the angry lesbians! We can really see the monster behind the mask here people. Just read between the lines. Not only don't they want to fuck a guy (much less suck his dick which I find unforgivable) they are OFFENDED at the mere thought that a man might get any pleasure whatsoever from them.
You revealed yourselves girls. It is about a neo-Freudian hatred of men, not any true love of the glazed doughnut face. Got ya gals.
You revealed yourselves girls. It is about a neo-Freudian hatred of men, not any true love of the glazed doughnut face. Got ya gals.
163
@162 I am offended when I lean over to kiss my girlfriend on a streetcorner and a group of dudebros feel this means they should start catcalling and chanting "again! again! again!"
The THOUGHT that a man might get some pleasure is fine, I've had dude friends get drunk and tell me they wish I was straight, I'm pretty sure than means they're getting some pleasure from our interactions. I don't need to be informed of the details or asked to help make the viewing experience more pleasurable for some rando dudebros. They're offensive. I'm offended. I'd be offended if I were a straight girl kissing my boyfriend and getting the same "perform my masturbatory fantasy for me!" response.
Why are you defending dudebros?
The THOUGHT that a man might get some pleasure is fine, I've had dude friends get drunk and tell me they wish I was straight, I'm pretty sure than means they're getting some pleasure from our interactions. I don't need to be informed of the details or asked to help make the viewing experience more pleasurable for some rando dudebros. They're offensive. I'm offended. I'd be offended if I were a straight girl kissing my boyfriend and getting the same "perform my masturbatory fantasy for me!" response.
Why are you defending dudebros?
165
DSG's making out are going about getting male attention the wrong way. I'm a straight guy, and I don't find lesbian kissing erotic so much as dissapointing. If I see a couple of hot women kissing, that's just two hot women who aren't interested in kissing me, so, you know, that's kind of a bummer as I like to kiss with the hot women.
166
160:
"But this is directed at a DSG, who thinks she's not doing anything wrong. And while I don't think there's anything morally wrong about it, but it's fucking hard to yell at men for assuming that two women making out are doing it for their pleasure when there's some chick running around doing exactly that. "
Without an actual causative connection between DSGs and entitled pricks, and there isn't one, it doesn't matter how many of them are in the room while you're berating that entitled prick.
His entitlement issues are his own fault: For the fifth time; if a guy feels "entitled" to blowjobs, we don't blame all the women who go around giving guys blowjobs. Women's behavior doesn't "give" men entitlement issues; larger cultural patriarchal values, combined with individual selfishness or stupidity, gives men entitlement issues.
It doesn't matter whether any given guy is basing his idiocy on girls he watched 5 years ago or girls he's watching right that very second: it's still his own damn fault he's drawing idiotic conclusions from other people's behavior. If DSGs vanished from the face of the earth, he'd still be an entitled prick with woman issues, and he'd still act accordingly.
As far as it being tacky and cheap: I agree; though I think tying cherry stems with your mouth is equally tacky. But two things:
1) That observation fits right into "if you don't like it don't fucking do it" territory, and
2) Be honest about THAT being the (subjective and immaterial) reason you dislike it. Don't try and force some sociological significance onto it that it doesn't have.
It's the people doing the latter that I'm arguing against. You'll notice that at no point did I ever argue against notions that it's "tacky" or a turn-off.
More...
"But this is directed at a DSG, who thinks she's not doing anything wrong. And while I don't think there's anything morally wrong about it, but it's fucking hard to yell at men for assuming that two women making out are doing it for their pleasure when there's some chick running around doing exactly that. "
Without an actual causative connection between DSGs and entitled pricks, and there isn't one, it doesn't matter how many of them are in the room while you're berating that entitled prick.
His entitlement issues are his own fault: For the fifth time; if a guy feels "entitled" to blowjobs, we don't blame all the women who go around giving guys blowjobs. Women's behavior doesn't "give" men entitlement issues; larger cultural patriarchal values, combined with individual selfishness or stupidity, gives men entitlement issues.
It doesn't matter whether any given guy is basing his idiocy on girls he watched 5 years ago or girls he's watching right that very second: it's still his own damn fault he's drawing idiotic conclusions from other people's behavior. If DSGs vanished from the face of the earth, he'd still be an entitled prick with woman issues, and he'd still act accordingly.
As far as it being tacky and cheap: I agree; though I think tying cherry stems with your mouth is equally tacky. But two things:
1) That observation fits right into "if you don't like it don't fucking do it" territory, and
2) Be honest about THAT being the (subjective and immaterial) reason you dislike it. Don't try and force some sociological significance onto it that it doesn't have.
It's the people doing the latter that I'm arguing against. You'll notice that at no point did I ever argue against notions that it's "tacky" or a turn-off.
167
Bonefish, women's behavior CAN reinforce patriarchal values. Personally I think there are some DSGs out there who are essentially mocking other women's sexuality, and that's not cool.
168
167: Obviously it can, as many of the slut-shamers here (who I believe to be reinforcing patriarchal values) are women.
Their specific theory on exactly HOW DSGs reinforce patriarchal values, however, are invalid. Not because DSGs are women, but because the root of social entitlement over women's bodies does not originate from drunk straight girls making out with each other, even if they're doing this to impress a guy.
I'm also dubious on the idea that they're mocking other women's sexuality. It's a sexual behavior in itself. As I pointed out before, our species isn't divided into "100% gay * exactly 50/50 bi * 100% straight" categories. Some people are "just bi enough" to get off on making out with the same sex while flirting/fucking with the opposite sex.
It's a different story if someone is "dared" to "go make out with that dyke." THAT would be mocking lesbians (though that shitty behavior is a different issue than that of reinforcing patriarchal norms).
I'm sure some particularly closeted/conflicted DSGs are engaging in that type of mocking (and I don't defend those ones), but the majority of them are just drunkenly playing around. This might not be very dignified, but neither is sex itself.
Their specific theory on exactly HOW DSGs reinforce patriarchal values, however, are invalid. Not because DSGs are women, but because the root of social entitlement over women's bodies does not originate from drunk straight girls making out with each other, even if they're doing this to impress a guy.
I'm also dubious on the idea that they're mocking other women's sexuality. It's a sexual behavior in itself. As I pointed out before, our species isn't divided into "100% gay * exactly 50/50 bi * 100% straight" categories. Some people are "just bi enough" to get off on making out with the same sex while flirting/fucking with the opposite sex.
It's a different story if someone is "dared" to "go make out with that dyke." THAT would be mocking lesbians (though that shitty behavior is a different issue than that of reinforcing patriarchal norms).
I'm sure some particularly closeted/conflicted DSGs are engaging in that type of mocking (and I don't defend those ones), but the majority of them are just drunkenly playing around. This might not be very dignified, but neither is sex itself.
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Re: access to sexual expression for the disabled, Pls see this guide for care providers. “Supporting Sexual Health and Intimacy in Care Facilities: A Pocket Reference Guide”. You can read the entire 13-page document here: http://sci-bc.ca/news/a-new-reference-gu…
Much ground-breaking work in this vital area of human rights is being done by Spinal Cord Injury BC and others here in Vancouver. Also please see the film "Scarlet Road".
Much ground-breaking work in this vital area of human rights is being done by Spinal Cord Injury BC and others here in Vancouver. Also please see the film "Scarlet Road".
170
I think I would be a little annoyed if someone were to try making out with me not because they found me attractive but because they were trying to impress/attract the attention of someone else entirely. That strikes me as a version of "involving other people in your sex life without their knowledge." (Granted, that's a strictly hypothetical reaction on my part, because if I were to accept said advances, I would have some serious explaining to do to my wife.)
And yes, there is something substantial to the idea of being a prick tease, feminist rhetoric or not. If I was to approach you at the bar of a restaurant, chat you up and establish mutual interest, have a drink together, suggest you sit with me at my table reservation, get menus and look at them together, and then walk away laughing when my actual date showed up, nobody in their right mind would hesitate to call me an asshole for leading you on. Are you "entitled" to a dinner off me? No, you are not. But am I an asshole for setting up expectations of dinner and then yanking them?
And yes, there is something substantial to the idea of being a prick tease, feminist rhetoric or not. If I was to approach you at the bar of a restaurant, chat you up and establish mutual interest, have a drink together, suggest you sit with me at my table reservation, get menus and look at them together, and then walk away laughing when my actual date showed up, nobody in their right mind would hesitate to call me an asshole for leading you on. Are you "entitled" to a dinner off me? No, you are not. But am I an asshole for setting up expectations of dinner and then yanking them?
171
Re 170: In case it's not obvious, the objection in 170 is from the perspective of the one being kissed, not some outside observer who thinks that it's obviously for his entertainment.
And no, I'm not saying that since you made out with me that I'm therefore entitled to sex. You are entitled to control over your body, and you are entitled to stop exactly when you want. You are -not-, however, entitled to demand that I not be disappointed.
And no, I'm not saying that since you made out with me that I'm therefore entitled to sex. You are entitled to control over your body, and you are entitled to stop exactly when you want. You are -not-, however, entitled to demand that I not be disappointed.
172
avast, maybe I've missed the posts where someone says that a particular woman made eyes at her, kissed her enthusiastically, and then laughed and went off with a guy, giggling at the dyke.
A woman kissing her friend in public, for fun, where the friend knows she's straight -- that's not the same thing.
And a lesbian complaining that a woman went out on dates with her for two months and kissed her, but broke it off when the lesbian pushed for sex -- that's also not very much like your hypothetical.
A woman kissing her friend in public, for fun, where the friend knows she's straight -- that's not the same thing.
And a lesbian complaining that a woman went out on dates with her for two months and kissed her, but broke it off when the lesbian pushed for sex -- that's also not very much like your hypothetical.
173
I haven't followed this week's comments religiously, but I thought I read some from lesbians who didn't like DSGs making out with them in order to impress a guy. I extrapolated that they were showing off with the woman and then would go off with the guy. Not necessarily literally giggling -- let alone _at_ the woman they were just making out with, as if to say boy they sure put on over on her -- but the end result is still the same: it was for all intents and purposes a setup.
It's rude to feign interest in one person in order to get the interest of someone else entirely. That's called "using them."
It's rude to feign interest in one person in order to get the interest of someone else entirely. That's called "using them."
175
@173, you're right. Looking back through the thread, women do refer to being used more or less in that way @25, 28, 142 and 155. That does seem cruel.
176
Avast-- Yes, yes, and yes. I haven't been an active participant this week and am glad you've gotten around to saying what I've been thinking. Accidentally getting a guy's attention is one issue. Making out with a lady for the purpose of getting his attention is another. I'm glad the lesbians of the LW's acquaintance call her on her shit.
177
Well spotted, Ms Eirene.
Ms Bone - It's clever of you to attempt to equate all disappoval of DSG conduct to S*-shaming, but you appear almost to be allowing acting like a S* to earn a blanket seal of approval for various other instances of bad conduct. It has been established that some DSGs mock lesbians/lesbianism. Just because they do so by acting like S*s doesn't make it okay.
My own objection is that DSGs are often Flaunting Straight Privilege. I have no interest in shaming S*s for acting like S*s (and probably wouldn't even be bothered to make that distinction), but I do admit to a taste for shaming Privilege Flaunters on a regular basis.
Now, DSG and this thread are making me think of a familiar pattern in feminist spaces which usually begins with a comment against some point of conduct of the so-called "Nice Guy". Almost inevitably one or more males wounded of ego will indignantly erect the NALT image. The inevitable reply to that is something I suspect those who have specific objections to specific aspects of the specific conduct of specific DSGs would make to the original DSG when she makes her revised post and her claim to be acting entirely in a manner designed to win the Ms Erica Seal of Approval - IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
Ms Bone - It's clever of you to attempt to equate all disappoval of DSG conduct to S*-shaming, but you appear almost to be allowing acting like a S* to earn a blanket seal of approval for various other instances of bad conduct. It has been established that some DSGs mock lesbians/lesbianism. Just because they do so by acting like S*s doesn't make it okay.
My own objection is that DSGs are often Flaunting Straight Privilege. I have no interest in shaming S*s for acting like S*s (and probably wouldn't even be bothered to make that distinction), but I do admit to a taste for shaming Privilege Flaunters on a regular basis.
Now, DSG and this thread are making me think of a familiar pattern in feminist spaces which usually begins with a comment against some point of conduct of the so-called "Nice Guy". Almost inevitably one or more males wounded of ego will indignantly erect the NALT image. The inevitable reply to that is something I suspect those who have specific objections to specific aspects of the specific conduct of specific DSGs would make to the original DSG when she makes her revised post and her claim to be acting entirely in a manner designed to win the Ms Erica Seal of Approval - IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
178
Feeling used or "teased" is legit, but it's an entirely separate issue from the debate over whether or not this behavior contributes to cultural notions of entitlement over women's bodies.
For people who believe it does, it shouldn't make any difference whether the straight girl is making out with another straight girl or with a "real" lesbian that she's led on. The effect would be the same either way.
I do agree that DSGs shouldn't target lesbians; other than that, here's all I have to say on the issue of DSG's leading people on (pasted from the other thread):
Making out with people who turn out to be uninterested in anything else is something that every group experiences. Whatever reason they have for it (not really lesbian; simply uninterested in anything beyond kissing that night; in an open relationship where kissing others is the limit; etc) is mostly irrelevant.
That said, though, it's perfectly justified to be disappointed when things don't go as far as you hoped, regardless of whether you can logically justify those feelings. Which is why I'm not really getting on the case of people who get annoyed at DSGs for leading them on.
I'm more focused on people who slut-shame DSGs while ironically justifying this with baseless claims that they're an oppressive tool of the patriarchy.
To be fair I did focus on that one commenter who had somehow tricked herself into believing that women who'd dated her for two months were also drunk straight girls, but only to point out how crazy that sounds (which I think we can all agree on).
For people who believe it does, it shouldn't make any difference whether the straight girl is making out with another straight girl or with a "real" lesbian that she's led on. The effect would be the same either way.
I do agree that DSGs shouldn't target lesbians; other than that, here's all I have to say on the issue of DSG's leading people on (pasted from the other thread):
Making out with people who turn out to be uninterested in anything else is something that every group experiences. Whatever reason they have for it (not really lesbian; simply uninterested in anything beyond kissing that night; in an open relationship where kissing others is the limit; etc) is mostly irrelevant.
That said, though, it's perfectly justified to be disappointed when things don't go as far as you hoped, regardless of whether you can logically justify those feelings. Which is why I'm not really getting on the case of people who get annoyed at DSGs for leading them on.
I'm more focused on people who slut-shame DSGs while ironically justifying this with baseless claims that they're an oppressive tool of the patriarchy.
To be fair I did focus on that one commenter who had somehow tricked herself into believing that women who'd dated her for two months were also drunk straight girls, but only to point out how crazy that sounds (which I think we can all agree on).
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177: I don't equate "all" disapproval of their conduct with slut-shaming. I equate blaming them for large cultural flaws with slut-shaming, because it is.
Saying "they shouldn't target lesbians because that's bad form" isn't slut-shaming.
Saying "they shouldn't make out with each other at all because that causes men to think X and Y" absolutely IS slut-shaming.
Saying "they shouldn't target lesbians because that's bad form" isn't slut-shaming.
Saying "they shouldn't make out with each other at all because that causes men to think X and Y" absolutely IS slut-shaming.
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M? Cardia - It was a little unlucky for JW to have to contend with both of them.
Sochi next year may be tough; it seems highly likely that none of my current group of favourites will get there - and it was a thin group for starters.
Sochi next year may be tough; it seems highly likely that none of my current group of favourites will get there - and it was a thin group for starters.
181
My thanks for the clarification. I can agree with the principle, though I suspect that, if we were on a Review Board, we would not be in universal agreement on all the potential cases.
182
"Bonefish, women's behavior CAN reinforce patriarchal values."
Tough shit.
Implying certain types of women should stifle their sexuality lest it give men the wrong idea about the rest of women is exactly the kind of bullshit that led me to reject feminism in the first place.
Tough shit.
Implying certain types of women should stifle their sexuality lest it give men the wrong idea about the rest of women is exactly the kind of bullshit that led me to reject feminism in the first place.
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@mydriasis
I am well aware that some women are into some (all?) of the things that are depicted in porn. That was not my contention with your original comment.
I think we can all agree that everyone approaches sex in their own unique way, some of which is represented in porn and some of which is not.
But I don't think it is such a bad thing to encourage guys to at least be interested and invested in making sure that their sexual partners enjoy sex as much as they do (whether that means incorporating foreplay or not). A lot, I believe most, women require at least some foreplay during sex. So it is not unreasonable for a guy to at least be willing and open to engaging in foreplay, if his partner requires it. Most porn doesn't seem to focus too much on foreplay (perhaps some does, but I don't know what the break down).
Besides, it is probably a lot easier to tell a guy that you don't need foreplay, than to tell a guy that you DO need foreplay.
To put this into context, Dan seems to receive a LOT of letters from women who's boyfriends/husbands don't know or seem to care to incorporate foreplay into their sex lives. As a result they don't find sex very satisfying. He doesn't seem to receive as many letters from women who hate foreplay but who's partners just won't quit trying ro engage in it. Obviously, the best solution is for people in a sexual relationship, is to communicate to each other about what their sexual desires/needs are and try their best to be GGG. To this end, I think promoting being as invested in your partner's sexual gratification as your own is a good place to start.
I am well aware that some women are into some (all?) of the things that are depicted in porn. That was not my contention with your original comment.
I think we can all agree that everyone approaches sex in their own unique way, some of which is represented in porn and some of which is not.
But I don't think it is such a bad thing to encourage guys to at least be interested and invested in making sure that their sexual partners enjoy sex as much as they do (whether that means incorporating foreplay or not). A lot, I believe most, women require at least some foreplay during sex. So it is not unreasonable for a guy to at least be willing and open to engaging in foreplay, if his partner requires it. Most porn doesn't seem to focus too much on foreplay (perhaps some does, but I don't know what the break down).
Besides, it is probably a lot easier to tell a guy that you don't need foreplay, than to tell a guy that you DO need foreplay.
To put this into context, Dan seems to receive a LOT of letters from women who's boyfriends/husbands don't know or seem to care to incorporate foreplay into their sex lives. As a result they don't find sex very satisfying. He doesn't seem to receive as many letters from women who hate foreplay but who's partners just won't quit trying ro engage in it. Obviously, the best solution is for people in a sexual relationship, is to communicate to each other about what their sexual desires/needs are and try their best to be GGG. To this end, I think promoting being as invested in your partner's sexual gratification as your own is a good place to start.
185
someone spanking my ass just to humor me? no thanks. not hot. i want it to make him hard, or forget it--i'd rather skip it. but that's just me.
186
@mydriasis and Buffy:
I quite liked it when my ex said he doesn't like the term "foreplay" at all. It's sex. Calling it "foreplay" makes it sound less valid.
What is it anyway? Any kind of non-PiV sex before PiV? Oral and manual sex? Is it still foreplay if one partner decides against PiV sex at the last minute?
It makes it sound like anything but PiV is not serious sex. (Which may well be how someone feels. But someone else might feel that anything without oral is not serious sex.)
I quite liked it when my ex said he doesn't like the term "foreplay" at all. It's sex. Calling it "foreplay" makes it sound less valid.
What is it anyway? Any kind of non-PiV sex before PiV? Oral and manual sex? Is it still foreplay if one partner decides against PiV sex at the last minute?
It makes it sound like anything but PiV is not serious sex. (Which may well be how someone feels. But someone else might feel that anything without oral is not serious sex.)
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@migrationist
Yeah I mean it's pretty common to view PIV that way, in the hetero world.
I certainly don't consider oral or manual sex as "sex" (for myself).
If someone said "I want to have sex with you" but really meant oral sex I would feel pretty fucking ripped off.
Yeah I mean it's pretty common to view PIV that way, in the hetero world.
I certainly don't consider oral or manual sex as "sex" (for myself).
If someone said "I want to have sex with you" but really meant oral sex I would feel pretty fucking ripped off.
188
When I was a teenager, I had almost a second home in that of my still very best friend's place. I basically lived there. His mom was like an adoptive mother to me, and she was very open to talking with me about any of my issues. At around the age of 14, we had a talk one day (all of us) about sex and puberty. The next day, when we walk over to his house after school, there was a stack of penthouse magazines on my buddy's bunkbed and a jar of condoms on the shelf. No words said. Later, she stopped in with a list of websites that were okay to view for similar material and told us that if we had any questions or concerns, we could always talk to her.
She provided a healthy sexual outlet for a couple of teenage guys, and provided a stable and, albeit awkward, safe and comfortable venue of communication around the topic. She's a hell of a lady, and a wonderful mother.
She provided a healthy sexual outlet for a couple of teenage guys, and provided a stable and, albeit awkward, safe and comfortable venue of communication around the topic. She's a hell of a lady, and a wonderful mother.
189
My sex life has improved from being open to guys doing stuff "for" me, and me doing stuff "for" them. When I'm hot for the other person, then it can be really hot to spank them or tie them up, or blow them or rim them, or whatever-the-fuck-they-love, even if it's not an activity which normally thrills me. That's what it means to be sexually compatible, in my view.
I'm with migrationist. It's all good. I have sex with many different parts of my body, and I don't wall some activities off as only "warm-up" to the "main event".
I'm with migrationist. It's all good. I have sex with many different parts of my body, and I don't wall some activities off as only "warm-up" to the "main event".
190
Kudos to the way you handled DSG's Question,Dan. I lol'd at the clever non-answer.Well played,sir:)
191
I get what Migrationist and Ms. Erica are saying about foreplay, and just calling it sex, but I'm with Mydriasis on this one. For women who get off on penetration, anything less can, in my experience, seem more like advanced cuddling. Oral isn't even worth my time, unless he forces me to let him do it for his own pleasure, in which case the power play makes it a little less boring.
192
Let me get this straight:
Slut-shaming is bad, even though it may lead some [stupid] men to think that all or most women are easy.
DSG shaming is ok because it may lead some [stupid] men to think that all or most girl-girl pairings are for their pleasure.
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense.
*Note: Leading people on is never cool. However, no drunk make out session ever guarantees anything more than just that.
Slut-shaming is bad, even though it may lead some [stupid] men to think that all or most women are easy.
DSG shaming is ok because it may lead some [stupid] men to think that all or most girl-girl pairings are for their pleasure.
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense.
*Note: Leading people on is never cool. However, no drunk make out session ever guarantees anything more than just that.
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@tachycardia
Amen sister.
Cunnilingus to me is a GGG thing reserved for LTRs. Giving head is fun times though even if I'd certainly never call it sex (whether it ends in orgasm or not).
Amen sister.
Cunnilingus to me is a GGG thing reserved for LTRs. Giving head is fun times though even if I'd certainly never call it sex (whether it ends in orgasm or not).
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@Mydriasis, tachycardia (and why do I feel like I'm typing in The Merck Manual?) and others on the "is foreplay sex" conversation:
I am deeply, deeply committed to PIV--a session of every wonderful other thing leaves me feeling a bit deprived and frustrated if there's been no P in my V. And yet I do find lots, lots of other sexual acts pretty great. I love oral, anal, fisting. I like to give and receive all kinds of sex. For me, PIV is the cumulative sexual act, but not THE defining sexual act.
Therefore, I understand the objection to calling everything else, especially if it precedes the big Moment of Penetration as "foreplay." It's all sex. It's all sexual. And what do you call oral, if it happens *after* the PIV, which happens in my bed all the time (well, when there's sex in my bed, which hasn't been nearly often enough lately, dammit!)? It's certainly not "before" the "sex", it's not a warm-up to the main event. It's another fun sex thing to do. Even the frotting and kissing and breast-play that might precede PIV and which gets me aroused so that PIV is pleasurable and not uncomfortable, is more than mere "foreplay" in the sense that it doesn't just serve as a getting-me-ready activity.
Besides, if you don't consider anything but PIV to qualify as "sex" what do you call it? (It's "oral SEX" after all) Say you, a woman, were out with a straight male friend last night and what you did was kiss and fondle and lick and suck each other, and he fingered you. Maybe at least one of you had an orgasm Another friend asks you what you did last night. Would you say, "we went bowling?" You might characterize it as "hanging out," which, while truthful, is also disingenuous. I hang out with my sister all the time, and none of those activities take place then. You might say, "We didn't have sex; we just smashed our genitals together, put them in each others' mouths, touched each other in such ways as to lead to orgasm. But we didn't have sex." Apparently, you might, but now you're starting to sound like those "virginity-until-marriage" Christians who carefully characterize any- and everything except for PIV as "not really sex." Or Bill Clinton. And do you really want to sound like either one?
More...
I am deeply, deeply committed to PIV--a session of every wonderful other thing leaves me feeling a bit deprived and frustrated if there's been no P in my V. And yet I do find lots, lots of other sexual acts pretty great. I love oral, anal, fisting. I like to give and receive all kinds of sex. For me, PIV is the cumulative sexual act, but not THE defining sexual act.
Therefore, I understand the objection to calling everything else, especially if it precedes the big Moment of Penetration as "foreplay." It's all sex. It's all sexual. And what do you call oral, if it happens *after* the PIV, which happens in my bed all the time (well, when there's sex in my bed, which hasn't been nearly often enough lately, dammit!)? It's certainly not "before" the "sex", it's not a warm-up to the main event. It's another fun sex thing to do. Even the frotting and kissing and breast-play that might precede PIV and which gets me aroused so that PIV is pleasurable and not uncomfortable, is more than mere "foreplay" in the sense that it doesn't just serve as a getting-me-ready activity.
Besides, if you don't consider anything but PIV to qualify as "sex" what do you call it? (It's "oral SEX" after all) Say you, a woman, were out with a straight male friend last night and what you did was kiss and fondle and lick and suck each other, and he fingered you. Maybe at least one of you had an orgasm Another friend asks you what you did last night. Would you say, "we went bowling?" You might characterize it as "hanging out," which, while truthful, is also disingenuous. I hang out with my sister all the time, and none of those activities take place then. You might say, "We didn't have sex; we just smashed our genitals together, put them in each others' mouths, touched each other in such ways as to lead to orgasm. But we didn't have sex." Apparently, you might, but now you're starting to sound like those "virginity-until-marriage" Christians who carefully characterize any- and everything except for PIV as "not really sex." Or Bill Clinton. And do you really want to sound like either one?
196
@nocute
Friend: "M, what did you do last night?
M*really had PIV*: "Hung out."
Friend: "M, what did you do last night?"
M*really had all other other things but not PIV*: "Hung out"
I'm not super into describing my sex life with people, unless they bring it up first. If I say who I hung out with, anyone who knows me will know that we had sex.
P.S. I haven't had an "everything but PIV" situation in years, and that's the way I like it.
Friend: "M, what did you do last night?
M*really had PIV*: "Hung out."
Friend: "M, what did you do last night?"
M*really had all other other things but not PIV*: "Hung out"
I'm not super into describing my sex life with people, unless they bring it up first. If I say who I hung out with, anyone who knows me will know that we had sex.
P.S. I haven't had an "everything but PIV" situation in years, and that's the way I like it.
197
@nocute
Okay, I'm being a bit difficult. Back in the day, that would be referred to as "we fooled around" or "we hooked up" maybe.
Okay, I'm being a bit difficult. Back in the day, that would be referred to as "we fooled around" or "we hooked up" maybe.
198
@mydriasis: Okay, I get it. I don't tell people every sexual detail if they ask what I did, either. And if I want to indicate that something sexual happened, maybe because it hadn't happened with the particular person before, I might say "we fooled around," or "we hooked up," too (which could include any sexual act from kissing to anal, if I'm using it in that context).
I'm not talking about having an "everything but PIV situation" as if people were rationing their sex, like some do for religious or cultural, or age-related-parcel-it-out reasons, or for fear of pregnancy and lack of birth control, or fear of STIs. There may simply be times when in every relationship, for one reason or another, people hook up, fool around, and PIV doesn't happen.
My point was that when you and tachycardia say you don't even define anything besides PIV as "sex," I think you're not being truthful or thinking it through logically. You may prefer not to have any sexual interaction that doesn't include or isn't mostly PIV, but you have to concede that cunnilingus, for example, is in fact, a sexual act. Right? So if that is what a couple did, it would be inaccurate and misleading to say they haven't had sex, which would lead someone else to think that nothing of any kind of sexual nature had occurred.
I mean, it is that literal definition which leads to the idea that if it doesn't include penetration of an orifice by a penis, it isn't sex, which suggests that lesbians can't and therefore don't have sex. Which is, of course, absurd.
I'm not talking about having an "everything but PIV situation" as if people were rationing their sex, like some do for religious or cultural, or age-related-parcel-it-out reasons, or for fear of pregnancy and lack of birth control, or fear of STIs. There may simply be times when in every relationship, for one reason or another, people hook up, fool around, and PIV doesn't happen.
My point was that when you and tachycardia say you don't even define anything besides PIV as "sex," I think you're not being truthful or thinking it through logically. You may prefer not to have any sexual interaction that doesn't include or isn't mostly PIV, but you have to concede that cunnilingus, for example, is in fact, a sexual act. Right? So if that is what a couple did, it would be inaccurate and misleading to say they haven't had sex, which would lead someone else to think that nothing of any kind of sexual nature had occurred.
I mean, it is that literal definition which leads to the idea that if it doesn't include penetration of an orifice by a penis, it isn't sex, which suggests that lesbians can't and therefore don't have sex. Which is, of course, absurd.
199
If you age with someone, and PIV doesn't always go well, you can either
a) raise the stakes, by insisting that PIV is your goal and they better get their gear in working order pronto, or
b) lower the stakes, by understanding that as long as you both had fun "fooling around," no one has to go to sleep disappointed or feeling like a failure.
As someone whose own orgasms are not reliably easy to obtain, I knew which way I wanted to go. But then, I've never gotten off from penetration, so perhaps that decision was easier for me. Your mileage may vary.
a) raise the stakes, by insisting that PIV is your goal and they better get their gear in working order pronto, or
b) lower the stakes, by understanding that as long as you both had fun "fooling around," no one has to go to sleep disappointed or feeling like a failure.
As someone whose own orgasms are not reliably easy to obtain, I knew which way I wanted to go. But then, I've never gotten off from penetration, so perhaps that decision was easier for me. Your mileage may vary.
200
@EricaP: I agree. Especially as you and your partner age, or are together through different periods of life, it would be frustrating and I think, lead to a lot of disappointment to define "sex" as only meaning PIV.
Perhaps like you, orgasms sometimes elude me, and I can never get them from PIV (nor from oral alone), but I still love the sensation of a P in my V.
As a teacher of critical thinking and writing, I just get irked when someone says something like "to me, anything but PIV isn't even sex," when what I think she means is, "I prefer every sexual encounter to consist only of PIV, and I don't even require or desire any or much in the way of warm-up activities." It's as much that lack of precision and clarity that I object to as it is a sense that I'm glad I'm not limiting my sexual repertoire so strictly.
Perhaps like you, orgasms sometimes elude me, and I can never get them from PIV (nor from oral alone), but I still love the sensation of a P in my V.
As a teacher of critical thinking and writing, I just get irked when someone says something like "to me, anything but PIV isn't even sex," when what I think she means is, "I prefer every sexual encounter to consist only of PIV, and I don't even require or desire any or much in the way of warm-up activities." It's as much that lack of precision and clarity that I object to as it is a sense that I'm glad I'm not limiting my sexual repertoire so strictly.
201
@nocute
People can have their own ways of viewing their own sexuality. That stuff feels distinctly not-like-sex to me. It's nice. But it's not sex. Some people consider masturbation sex. I get that. But I don't feel that way personally. If I ask someone what they did last night and they say "I had sex" when really they were masturbating I wouldn't consider that super honest. But masturbation is in fact a "kind" of sex.
Lesbians don't have sex in the sense of what I consider sex for myself. I'm sure it feels like sex to them, and they think of it that way and experience it that way. But lesbian sex would be massively lacking for me (I've been with women, it's fun. But it feels distinctly different than what my brain processes as "sex" and it's more dependent on act than gender. Oral from a man feels no more like sex than oral from a woman.)
I understand that LITERALLY those things are sex. But my brain doesn't process them as the same as sex, my body doesn't experience them as the same as sex, so... I don't call them sex. It's perfectly honest for me to do so, unless the guy in question is your boyfriend/husband or something, in which case your opinion of what sex is becomes relevant in my sex life. Otherwise I think it's valid to describe things as I perceive them.
Finally, neither of us said we prefer to have only PIV, we said we don't consider foreplay as sex. I don't consider a delicious chocolate milkshake sex but if you offer me one before or after I'll gladly take it. Saying something isn't experienced as sex doesn't mean you don't like it - necessarily, although it COULD mean that.
People can have their own ways of viewing their own sexuality. That stuff feels distinctly not-like-sex to me. It's nice. But it's not sex. Some people consider masturbation sex. I get that. But I don't feel that way personally. If I ask someone what they did last night and they say "I had sex" when really they were masturbating I wouldn't consider that super honest. But masturbation is in fact a "kind" of sex.
Lesbians don't have sex in the sense of what I consider sex for myself. I'm sure it feels like sex to them, and they think of it that way and experience it that way. But lesbian sex would be massively lacking for me (I've been with women, it's fun. But it feels distinctly different than what my brain processes as "sex" and it's more dependent on act than gender. Oral from a man feels no more like sex than oral from a woman.)
I understand that LITERALLY those things are sex. But my brain doesn't process them as the same as sex, my body doesn't experience them as the same as sex, so... I don't call them sex. It's perfectly honest for me to do so, unless the guy in question is your boyfriend/husband or something, in which case your opinion of what sex is becomes relevant in my sex life. Otherwise I think it's valid to describe things as I perceive them.
Finally, neither of us said we prefer to have only PIV, we said we don't consider foreplay as sex. I don't consider a delicious chocolate milkshake sex but if you offer me one before or after I'll gladly take it. Saying something isn't experienced as sex doesn't mean you don't like it - necessarily, although it COULD mean that.
202
@Erica
"But then, I've never gotten off from penetration, so perhaps that decision was easier for me."
You think? Haha. You hit the nail on the head.
You're not losing anywhere near as much by cutting out (or cutting down on) PIV as I would be if I ever did. I've orgasmed from cunnilingus and manual but it's nowhere near the same as what it's like during sex.
"But then, I've never gotten off from penetration, so perhaps that decision was easier for me."
You think? Haha. You hit the nail on the head.
You're not losing anywhere near as much by cutting out (or cutting down on) PIV as I would be if I ever did. I've orgasmed from cunnilingus and manual but it's nowhere near the same as what it's like during sex.
203
@188faithhandler:thanks. That's the kind of helpful info normal people need to hear. Open, honest, not too creepy. I think I will try to remember this and HOPEFULLY, BBTB will see what you posted. Of all the comments and also Dan's advice(I assume he was joking) yours was the ONLY one directly applicable to this women's situation. So thanks again.
@Hunter78(193) I feel there is a part of me that needs to defend the successful vanilla sexual relationship but even as I do I realize that as vanilla as my husband and I are we are still not limited to PiV. He would be very bored without blow jobs. His life WOULD be so small and drab without oral sex. Easy fix I say. Y'all are easy to please.
@Hunter78(193) I feel there is a part of me that needs to defend the successful vanilla sexual relationship but even as I do I realize that as vanilla as my husband and I are we are still not limited to PiV. He would be very bored without blow jobs. His life WOULD be so small and drab without oral sex. Easy fix I say. Y'all are easy to please.
204
@tito
Woah woah woah woah
Ain't nobody talking about a world without blowjobs. Cutting out blowjobs and cutting out cunnilingus are two very different things in my book.
Woah woah woah woah
Ain't nobody talking about a world without blowjobs. Cutting out blowjobs and cutting out cunnilingus are two very different things in my book.
205
Your response to Drunk Straight Girl was a) a cop out and b) off the mark. First, unless you're talking about that list of important problems, there are always more important problems. So, unless that becomes a stock answer for socially ridiculous behavior, you're copping out.
And you're off the mark, anyways. Lesbian teen out with her girlfriend for a night of fun kisses her gf on the dance floor and WOOT! OH YEAH! WOOT! The bros start hooting like idiots. Lesbian teenager doesn't want her kiss to be mixed up with attention-whoring, thank you very much. She just wants to kiss her girlfriend.
-Signed
Lesbian Teen's Father
And you're off the mark, anyways. Lesbian teen out with her girlfriend for a night of fun kisses her gf on the dance floor and WOOT! OH YEAH! WOOT! The bros start hooting like idiots. Lesbian teenager doesn't want her kiss to be mixed up with attention-whoring, thank you very much. She just wants to kiss her girlfriend.
-Signed
Lesbian Teen's Father
206
Am I the only straight guy who gets no particular thrill at all from watching women have sex? I find it downright boring, while seeing a woman hungry for cock makes me hot since that is the equipment I have.
I've been married to a bi-woman for years, and have shared many fun times adding other women to the mix. All my thrill is from seeing my woman soooo happy getting something I can't give, and of course the fun of having two women to play with...
And lastly, when I was much younger, I mouth kissed my beautiful, hot male friend - an experience that immediately and powerfully revealed that I am straight. No amount of liquor would change that - aren't DSG's simply straight identified, slightly bi women who are only a little bit female oriented since its all a spectrum? My wife is super straight identified and none would know otherwise.
I've been married to a bi-woman for years, and have shared many fun times adding other women to the mix. All my thrill is from seeing my woman soooo happy getting something I can't give, and of course the fun of having two women to play with...
And lastly, when I was much younger, I mouth kissed my beautiful, hot male friend - an experience that immediately and powerfully revealed that I am straight. No amount of liquor would change that - aren't DSG's simply straight identified, slightly bi women who are only a little bit female oriented since its all a spectrum? My wife is super straight identified and none would know otherwise.
207
Implying certain types of women should stifle their sexuality lest it give men the wrong idea about the rest of women is exactly the kind of bullshit that led me to reject feminism in the first place.
Except I wasn't the one arguing that way. I said that using your sexuality to mock other women's sexuality was not cool. To the extent that any particular DSGs are not doing that, well, it's not about them.
Except I wasn't the one arguing that way. I said that using your sexuality to mock other women's sexuality was not cool. To the extent that any particular DSGs are not doing that, well, it's not about them.
208
Asym,
I don't care for girl on girl porn.
Except sometimes when they've got a long double-ended dildo fucking each other.
But 2 hot young DSGs kissing each other in a bar?
I'd watch and cheer!
I don't care for girl on girl porn.
Except sometimes when they've got a long double-ended dildo fucking each other.
But 2 hot young DSGs kissing each other in a bar?
I'd watch and cheer!
209
@Eirene
A straight girl making out with another girl to get the attention of a guy is no more "mocking" of lesbianism than a vanilla girl engaging in a little kink to please her man is "mocking" of BDSM.
Unless you're talking about women literally being like "LAWL LESBIANS LET'S MAKE OUT TO MAKE FUN OF THEM" which was nothing like the letter and certainly nothing I've ever heard of, seen, or even logical...
A straight girl making out with another girl to get the attention of a guy is no more "mocking" of lesbianism than a vanilla girl engaging in a little kink to please her man is "mocking" of BDSM.
Unless you're talking about women literally being like "LAWL LESBIANS LET'S MAKE OUT TO MAKE FUN OF THEM" which was nothing like the letter and certainly nothing I've ever heard of, seen, or even logical...
211
What about the guys? Isn't it unfair in general to pretend to be something you're not for the purpose of getting attention? Presumably, having gotten that attention, the DSGs do a quick turn-around and leave the guys hanging. Sounds despicable to me. That's where the tease comes in, not to the girls who are getting kissed, not to the lesbians who object on principle, it's to the guys watching.
212
"Presumably, having gotten that attention, the DSGs do a quick turn-around and leave the guys hanging."
Wait, why is that your presumption?
Wait, why is that your presumption?
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