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Sunday, December 16, 2007

Croc Closed?

posted by on December 16 at 17:50 PM

A reliable source just informed me that she received a phone call from the Crocodile’s Eli Anderson this afternoon. Eli told her he had received a phone call from Crocodile owner Stephanie Dorgan earlier today to inform him that the Crocodile is closed for business.

Emails have been sent and phonecalls have been made to confirm. We’ll let you know as soon as we find out more, but I’m trusting this tip is true.


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Posted by jason | December 16, 2007 6:03 PM

Somebody should just run over there and ask...

Posted by Ryan | December 16, 2007 6:12 PM

Oh happy day! I guess they'll finally have room in Belltown for some condos and maybe a Quizno's.

Merry Christmas Seattle.

Posted by Brian | December 16, 2007 6:44 PM

If Green Bay can buy a community professional football team, you'd think that Seattle could come together to buy a community rock club. Or something.

Posted by josh | December 16, 2007 6:57 PM

But it's been so stable over there lately.

Posted by Jason Josephes | December 16, 2007 6:59 PM

A sad goodbye to the Seattle institution that helped build the scene. Thanks for all the great shows...we'll miss you (and the veggie gumbo and mashed taters).

Posted by Chuck | December 16, 2007 7:51 PM

Woah. What a huge loss. At the show we all played there last night (cray cray line around the block cause David Bazan brings the fools out) there was no sign from anyone this was gonna happen. All the staff seemed jovial.

Croc is the best club in town and this is gonna really wreck some weekends. As a kiddie growing up here I thought that was the coolest place in the world... Where is Jim gonna go?!?!?!?!?

We've got a streetcar to nowhere, aborted mass transit, and now one less club, the best one at that. Fewer and fewer bands are moving here to play music, and many are even moving AWAY to portland and elsewhere....

Let's step it up!!!!!

Posted by Pecknold | December 16, 2007 8:20 PM

That's a terrible shame, particularly in a city where interesting places are being gobbled up by developers turned into office spaces and condos. The club had a nice cozy ambience and a good sound system. Hopefully somebody buys the place and continues to put on rock and roll.

Posted by neo-realist | December 16, 2007 8:44 PM

@7: All respect to those who were close to The Crocodile, physically and with heart, but it's loss isn't really a huge loss to Seattle overall. There are many who hadn't stepped into the club for the past two years or so who still were having an enriched concert life in Seattle.

Its loss is sad, however. I do remember it being *the* spot around the turn of the millenium and before. I have many fond memories of that place.

Then again, I have fond memories of I-Spy, Gibson's, and Second Avenue Pizza as well.

Posted by mackro mackro | December 16, 2007 8:47 PM

What Would Scott McCaughey Do?

Posted by rocket rocker | December 16, 2007 8:50 PM

This truly sucks. First the Showbox goes megacorporate, and now this. I'll bet this is that bitch Dorgan's way of saying fuck you to the Seattle music community, just out of spite after Greenberg told her off and quit. I hate to say it, but it really feels like the indie music scene in this town is disintegrating.

Posted by rk | December 16, 2007 8:54 PM

"it's loss isn't really a huge loss to Seattle overall."

That is total bullshit. There aren't so many decent clubs here that the loss of even one, particularly one as notable as the Croc, won't be felt acutely by thousands of people, including lots of local musicians.

Posted by rk | December 16, 2007 8:57 PM

"What Would Scott McCaughey Do?"

–my new T-shirt

Posted by Paulus | December 16, 2007 9:06 PM


Posted by rtw | December 16, 2007 9:09 PM

What a drag. I saw tons of shows there, probably more than any other Seattle club, although it sucked when it got too packed. I used to like the restaurant for breakfast, too, but it went downhill in a big way about 6 or 7 years ago.

Posted by Matt from Denver | December 16, 2007 9:11 PM

Its a sad day for Seattle music, indeed. The Crocodile is an institution.

However, sometimes change is good. Things have been less than stable over there and this town is not wont for great rock clubs. The scene will go on.

Posted by | December 16, 2007 9:19 PM

Is everything awesome going to be gone in a fucking year?

Posted by Mr. Poe | December 16, 2007 9:26 PM

To commenter number 11: Yeah, weird that the indie rock scene is disintegrating huh. Might be because most of the dirty looking young dudes and girls who provide that indie rock are getting priced out of the damn town. Or that parts of the small music community are very competitive and thus alienating. Seattle is the shit-talking capital of the world and that's a bummer in small indie rock land.

Still, there's lot of amazing stuff going on and you can't really beat the scenery. Portland has a dirty river and a Mt. Rainer wannabe.

Posted by Pecknold | December 16, 2007 9:32 PM

No, first it was the old Vogue and the RCKNDY and the original OffRamp and a slew of other places that helped shape the music history of Seattle. This is just the last to fall. Not a big deal anymore. I never thought SD was a particularly nice or warm person but lets just leave the name calling alone. Duh, remember, it's the same person who built and was responsible for the same thing people are whining about.

Posted by old timer | December 16, 2007 9:34 PM

this was like a slap in the face when i first read this. ..i'm still in complete shock. i played my first proper show ten years ago at the crocodile and have always considered it to be my local venue of choice. a big thank you and bleeding heart to jim who ran sound for SO many bands. you mention where you're from to other musicians you meet out there on the road and jim's name will come with great excitment. i love seatte more than most things and even more so it's music scene. it is diverse and continues to grow at such a rapid pace. the closing of such a lengendary club that hosted so many importand and memorable shows (nirvana, fastbacks, sunny day real estate, FLEET FOXES) is sad, but it doesn't reflect a dying music community.
you will be missed. thank you for the memories.

Posted by damien jurado | December 16, 2007 9:47 PM

Merry Muthafuckin’ Xmas, indeed.

Posted by laterite | December 16, 2007 10:07 PM

Wow, I can't wait to go to the new Quiznos/dry cleaners/nail salon that will take its place.

My grandma took me to the Crocodile in 1993 to get breakfast, and it completely blew my mind (I was 13). Much thanks to everyone who's worked there over the years, you made it one of my favorite venues.

Posted by Jessica | December 16, 2007 10:08 PM

Kicked in the balls, thats how I feel. This sucks.

Posted by Mike Prevette | December 16, 2007 10:14 PM

i loved their grilled cheese sandwhiches...

Posted by heather | December 16, 2007 10:14 PM

There's only one question: what will Jim do?!?! Greatest sound guy in Seattle history. If this is true, R.I.P. Croc. Is there any doubt that the Croc was the most important rock club in Seattle in the 1990s?

Posted by Eric Reynolds | December 16, 2007 10:28 PM

Jesus fuck. I just read this . . . I have no words, but had to chime in in my own ineloquent way.

Posted by Levislade | December 16, 2007 10:29 PM

I'm saddened. I've seen so many awesome shows there. I was even planning to go there this Friday. Their website lists shows booked into May of next year.

Posted by Matt | December 16, 2007 10:29 PM

Lame if true.

Posted by treacle | December 16, 2007 10:33 PM

I'm with Eric at @25 -- What Will Jim Anderson do? This news is so very, very sad. RIP Crocodile.

Posted by imaginary dana | December 16, 2007 10:47 PM

While I realize that all things come to an end, if this is true then it's very sad news. Over the years I've had so many good memories of shows at the Croc, whether I was playing, working or watching. I must sincerely express my thanks to Jim and Kevin, the two employees who were there way back when I worked at the club and who both always made me feel welcome every time I came in. And I should express my gratitude to everyone at the Croc, past and present, for giving Seattle a great place to watch great bands for such a long time.

The haters, regardless of reason, need to shut up and step off. It's hard as hell to run a live music venue, and to do it as well and for as long as the Crocodile did deserves nothing but respect.

Posted by Patrick Porter | December 16, 2007 10:53 PM

Well, I think it was a good run. Unlike most places they truly tapped into a one time Zeitgeist and helped create it.
Their success ironically added to their undoing. Who wanted to hang out in Belltown before they opened? Who thought a music club would work in Seattle? Having shown the way they drew competition.
Also I would add the Dorgans of Seattle don't need your approval to end a project they did not need it to start one. The complainers should try creating and maintaining something.

Posted by Zander | December 16, 2007 11:15 PM

So long, and thanks for the rock.

I've seen so many great shows there over the years I can't count, but one stands out in my memory over the rest: Yoko Ono/IMA.

Posted by Diana | December 16, 2007 11:25 PM

do you hear that? the sound of 9 booking guys clicking like crazy between their calendars and the Crocodile's? Bobby Bare Jr. and The Decemberists hmmmm....

Posted by TBG | December 16, 2007 11:41 PM

okay, if they're strapped for cash, do you know how many people would pay a shitload of money right now for a Save The Croc fundraiser bash? C'mon, people, let's make it happen!

Posted by jg | December 16, 2007 11:53 PM

Lame. I never even got a chance to get breakfast there.

Posted by Katelyn | December 17, 2007 12:15 AM

Eric R: no question. For one thing (from memory), Cat Power, Red Krayola, Smog (that was a single show, Red Krayola headlining); Unrest with Stereolab opening, Air Miami a year later, Hazel, Heatmiser, Tsunami, Kristin Hersh (special smoke-free show because she was pregnant), Bedhead, Rein Sanction, Modest Mouse, and countless other amazing shows, most of these before they figured out how to open up the band room to the cafe. There were advantages to the scene being small then.

Posted by Eric F | December 17, 2007 12:23 AM

Yep, my city is dying. time to think about putting together the scrapbook and then hitting the trail.

Posted by figdish | December 17, 2007 2:11 AM

Well, the good news is you can rent that piece. Hatefags.

Posted by Market Forces | December 17, 2007 2:46 AM

Eric's got it sussed @25.

For shame, Stephanie Dorgan. You could have at least let the month play out. Shit is booked through the new year.

We all know you've had the club on the seller's block for awhile now, you couldn't wait until 2008 to screw your loyal employees and the folks that have been booked into your spot?

I hope you took care of your employees, Stephanie Dorgan. At least give 'em two weeks. And, if you don't do something special for Kevin...well, fuck. That's on you.

Some of the best memories in recent times were made in that room. I will miss it.

Posted by kerri harrop | December 17, 2007 3:02 AM

WOW, you all give up easily. No wonder there's no monorail here.

Prepare yourself, Seattle, for another long set of articles full of people expressing their sadness/anger at the disappearance of another great Seattle bar/cafe/venue, with ABSOLUTELY NO DICUSSION ON THE CAUSES, AND NO ATTEMPT TO TAKE ACTION WITH REMEDIES.

Those who love the Crocodile could easily pool together money and buy the place, making it a live music coop. It's been done. It does work. But it requires action. Put your money where your mouth is, or keep your mouth shut.

Posted by Sarah Cassidy | December 17, 2007 4:09 AM

Sorry, #40, I'm still in the angry stage. I spent most of my 20s at the Crocodile. It's the best club in town for a million reasons.

#4, the City does support a music venue, The Vera Project. It's not a 21+ place, but an all-ages place, which seems fitting for something City-supported.

Posted by Stephanie | December 17, 2007 6:51 AM

I've been calling the Croc the second best music venue ever in the city, the first being of course the late Backstage in Ballard, which is now a health club I believe. I loved the Croc. Must have seen the Minus 5 there about a dozen times, also Fastbacks and the last-ever show by Gas Huffer, remember that one? Their food wasn't so bad, washed down with a Swamp Water. I honestly can't think of an existing venue that can take its place.

Posted by --MC | December 17, 2007 7:13 AM

would all you indie rock fags please over-exaggerate a little more and actually get the fuck out of the city. your tight legged jeans and homogenized look is what is actually KILLING THE SCENE OH NOES! the way little bitches are reacting on here is truly ridiculous. it's a fucking nightclub. you'll get over it. someone else will book the same shows somewhere else and you'll never know the difference.

Posted by FEED JIM THE SOUND GUY BEFORE HE DIES | December 17, 2007 8:04 AM

Didn't Peter Buck from REM own the Croc, or part of it? Or is that urban legend?

Posted by Brad | December 17, 2007 8:20 AM

@40: How about giving us a day or two to grieve, huh? Especially the way that bitch Dorgan closed it down with NO notice whatsoever. The anonymous fuckwad @43 can be all snarky and insulting, but the fact is that an awful lot of good people have great memories from the Croc, and can't just let it go that easily.

There are already rumors of a co-op effort to buy it and keep it running. We'll see if it happens, but if it does, count me in for 50-100K (yeah exactly, money talks, bullshit walks). Problem is that the cost of Belltown land and property has gone through the roof in the last 10 years, so even if the money to buy it can be put together, the property taxes will be deadly and will only get worse.

Posted by rk | December 17, 2007 8:53 AM

The Croc was the scene of my greatest triumph. No, not the quarter-stuffing; more than a decade earlier, when I was pulled up on stage out of the crowd by Lois Maffeo, and won the ensuing dance contest. My "vacuum cleaner" beat out the ironer and the floor sweeper, as I recall. I still have the magic red shirt I wore that night.

It was a great club. Best: The Pastels, The Magnetic Fields, Robert Forster and Grant McLennan, the incomparable Edwyn Collins with Paul Cook from the Sex Pistols drumming. Great sound, great bar.

But, you know, nothing lasts forever. The club was LOSING MONEY; it's hard to blame Stephanie Dorgan when she has been basically running the place as a charity for a couple of years. There are other clubs.

Posted by Fnarf | December 17, 2007 9:01 AM

Piss or get off the pot and deal with it.

RIP Rockcandy, Weathered Wall, Lake Union Pub, Storeroom, Uncle Rockys, Gibson, Kincora, Sit n Spin, Area 51 yadda yadda gabba gabba etc.

That's how shit happens, i'm sure something better will come out of it. IMO the Croc has been just milking it's name for the last 10 years with half-ass shows.

Posted by bobcat | December 17, 2007 9:21 AM

From what I've gathered (and insiders, feel free to chime in on this) the money loss was due to Dorgan's non-existant management style. Bars typically do not lose money: quite the opposite, they are an easy way for an idiot to make a buck.

From a business perspective, we had three things going on here:

BAR - $$$. Seriously, this is not hard. Get a reliable staff, and this runs itself. The front door / security guys were alwasy cool at the Croc too, so this wasn't the problem.

KITCHEN - OK, traditionally margins on food sales are thin. This was probably a headache. This would probably have to go.

LIVE VENUE - I know a bit about the economics on this as well. And unless there was some bizarre guarantee given to some huge headliner years ago that didn't bring in the money and they are still paying on it, this is not a hugh money loss either. And the economics of this is in the hands of the bookers, not Doogan or any distant owner. I'm sure Pete et al knew what they were doing.

Let's interrupt the eulogies for a second and talk brass tacks. Can anyone confirm if:

1. Doogan owned the property? Or just the business, and she leased?
2. Has a sale of the business / property occured, or just a closing?

If Doogan leased, and the business is for sale, I am ready to be Person Zero. My wallet is on the table, if anyone else want to join in.

Obviously, this is all dependant on the typical process of opening up the Croc's books, looking under the hood, and seeing where the changes could occur to make a profitable enterprise. If profitability is possible, move forward. But I'm ready to start the process.

Posted by The Interloper | December 17, 2007 9:31 AM


That said, there are special things that come up around each of these venues that don't move when a venue closed. Weathered Wall had Lemon Twist and The Surrealist Magic Theater, never seen anything like them anywhere since. Aerospace, had Spice and some amazing shows like Portishead that happened only because of the creativity of the Tasty folks. Lake Union Pub, etc, was the home of an important scene that seems to now be fleeing the city's core due to lack of small venues. The scene doesn't always just go on.

Thankfully we still have other great live venues, but this definitely leaves a big hole, especially in Belltown, especially for new bands.

But this is definitely a side effect of the Mayor's downtown development plan that seems to have no room in it for live music. And props to the Croc staff and owners - it's an incredibly hard job to keep a love music venue open for more than 5 years with the changes that happen in the scene, etc. And it's never easy to close. There's always some lack of grace in that.

The bigg question is that if The Croc was the home of indie rock, is this (finally) the start of the end of indie rock?

Posted by Meinert | December 17, 2007 9:39 AM

According to the website they have shows booked all the way till May. Would be sad to see it close, I'll wait for the official announcement before I start mourning.

Posted by Cato | December 17, 2007 9:42 AM

Damn, where's that R.E.M. dude gonna hang out now?

Posted by huh | December 17, 2007 9:52 AM

Looks like it's owned by a Howard D. Close - any idea who that is?

Posted by Levislade | December 17, 2007 10:03 AM

Tasty Shows gets credit for booking Portishead? they played all over America that year. they got booked everywhere. you don't have to be creative to book the biggest name in the most popular genre at the time.

Posted by truth | December 17, 2007 10:05 AM

I worked at the Croc for a few years and it was one of the greatest times of my life. I met the best people there in my fellow employees, Babe!! Amber!! Tamara!! Ms. Dorgon dones have a right to sell, but is it right to close without any notice to the hardworking and loyal staff? A week before the holidays?The womans only interest is herself.

Posted by trixie | December 17, 2007 10:07 AM

Fnarf, I was there, and you brought it! Lois was rocking the Dorothy look back then.

Posted by Eric F | December 17, 2007 10:20 AM

There were reports months ago that she was having trouble meeting payroll. Seeing as how payroll is by a wide margin your most important expense, and you have a legal responsibility to make it, before you make your rent or your supplier's bills or your loans or ANYTHING else, it should have been apparent at that moment that the club was dead. A business that can't make payroll is toast.

It's very interesting to see how many people here are so keen on telling Stephanie Dorgon how much of HER money she should have been willing to keep losing.

Posted by Fnarf | December 17, 2007 10:29 AM


when was the last time buckmeister "hung out" there? Certainly not after the last Minus 5n show. That was a speedy gonzalazes exit, along with the other Venus in Furs (ahem, not that i was paying mind, sick sick sick voyuer i me mine). i really did mean to offer verbal cheers, but it must be a hectic bisiness for 'em - like outta there, whoooooosh!

Posted by Joost | December 17, 2007 10:30 AM

Nothing lasts forever, but nevertheless it's sad to see this place go. Have lots of good memories from the place.

There are lots of rumors and we'll all have to wait and see what's true (i.e. The Croc has a 10 year lease, it's on a month to month lease (the latter would attract no buyer), etc). There are probably a dozen groups of people thinking about making a pitch for the place this morning. But we have no clear idea how viable the business is. If it was viable, I doubt Stephanie would close so abruptly. The story of The Croc is probably similar to the one of Sit & Spin a few years ago (an owner burnt out on the business and no long term lease deal). Hopefully something or someone will come out of the blue and save this place, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There is probably a better chance of another venue starting somewhere else.

Posted by Chrispo | December 17, 2007 10:39 AM


with all the money she was skimming, i hardly think she was losing money. but i'm sure she'll somehow seel the real reason why it closed so we'll never know.

Posted by cochise. | December 17, 2007 10:47 AM

Anyone have Paul Allen's number?

Posted by B2TS | December 17, 2007 10:50 AM

Well, OK, then, Cochise; since it's so easy I expect to see your club opening when -- tomorrow? You don't know a damn thing about the recent finances of the Croc. (I have never laid eyes on Ms. Dorgon either, in case you're wondering).

Posted by Fnarf | December 17, 2007 10:54 AM

Art Chantry called it in 2000. From an article in this very rag:

"There were several reasons why I left," he explains. "The first and foremost was--and this is strictly personal--I hated the town that Seattle had become. I just found myself getting up and loathing the city. Spending my day trying to deal with it and then going back at night to my little apartment and just loathing the city, you know. It's just... it was so grating to everything I cared about, considering the way that city used to be. It's become a city of assholes and whores."

'Tis Pity She's a Whore. The Disappearance of Art Chantry

That article went to press the month before I moved here. And thought he was just being pessimistic.

Art, you were right. 'Tis a pity she is still a whore.

Posted by Sick of Seattle | December 17, 2007 10:54 AM

Fnarf - you cease to amaze me with your key-internettery assumptions about things you know nothing about.

Posted by bobcat | December 17, 2007 10:56 AM

So the bitch even cooked the books? She's an even bigger scumbag than I thought.

Posted by rk | December 17, 2007 11:00 AM

@61 i never said it was easy, and i never said i wanted to open a club. but since you dared me i now have no choice.

to do list:
1) find bigfoot (previous dare circa 1997)
2) open a club

Posted by cochise. | December 17, 2007 11:04 AM

Wow, there goes my youth. Sad.
As for Jim, as one of the best sound guys in the city I would think he'd be snatched up pretty quickly.

Posted by scharrera | December 17, 2007 11:05 AM

Coming Fall 2010...The Crocodile Condos, Living luxury in the heart of Seattle's historic "grunge" district.

Posted by sprizee | December 17, 2007 11:05 AM

@43: um, whatever. Where did all the acts that played, say, the Vogue, Fenix, or Catwalk go, exactly?

Likely answer: Somewhere in SF.

Posted by K | December 17, 2007 11:06 AM

Hmm, bobcat. That's interesting. What assumptions are you referring to, exactly? And what does "key-internettery" mean in English?

Posted by Fnarf | December 17, 2007 11:07 AM

@52 . . .

Howard D. Close is the taxpayer for the property, but may not be the owner.

Sometimes the owner's accountant or lawyer is the one listed on the property tax records because that's the way the owner wants it and the accountant or lawyer is the one who takes care of the property tax payments.

You would need to have a title search done to really be sure who the property owner is. But hey, kudos to you for checking those county records, it's can only help.

Posted by I am your mother | December 17, 2007 11:19 AM


Event Cancellation Notice
The following event has been cancelled:

Sweet Water
12/31/07 9:00 PM PST
Crocodile Cafe

The tickets you purchased will be automatically refunded to the credit card used to make the purchase. Please allow up to five business days for the refund to post to your account.

Thank you for choosing TicketWeb.

Posted by blah | December 17, 2007 11:41 AM

Hey everybody. I just wanted to chime in and say "thanks" to everyone who came out to any of the shows that Pete and I booked in the past year. From a purely attendance standpoint the Croc had a really great 2007. So thank you very much for that.

Also thanks to everyone who had positive things to say in this comment box thingie. It is very very hard to run a concert venue (trust me, i've been doing the talent buying by myself since Pete left) and your support means a lot to me.

I also want to reiterate that the Croc's closure came as a TOTAL SURPRISE to everyone who worked there, myself included. I spent the last three weeks on my life work there 60+hours per week, frantically convincing agents/bands/promoters that it was okay to book shows there because I believed it was. Obviously if I knew we were going to close I wouldn't have been putting so much work into securing the Croc a solid spring schedule. I'd like to apologize to any band or agent or promoter who I inadvertently lied to in the past few weeks.

I feel really betrayed by the club's sudden closure. It was no mystery to anyone who cared that the Crocodile was losing money. But I really do feel that we had the right people in there, with the right attitude and that we were going to turn things around. I was very much looking forward to throwing myself into the job and doing everything in my power to assure that the Crocodile Cafe became the club that it deserved to be. I cared deeply about the place and everything it stood for. So to have the wool pulled over my eyes and the rug pulled out from under my feet is just insulting.

I'd also like to say that I got the VOICE MAIL about the Croc closing while I was Christmas shopping if only because it adds a delicious Dickensian twist to the story. Here's to hoping that the local music community shows up at my apartment tonight with a fat Christmas goose.

Oh! And if anyone has a lead on a job...I kinda need one...

Posted by Eli | December 17, 2007 11:56 AM

@31 - actually, belltown was lots of fun *before* the crock opened. Crappy dives like the Ditto were letting experimental bands (Freshly Wrapped Candies, Angus & Greinke, Center for Disease COntrol Boys) play. Belltown sucks now. Remember - First Avenue is moving to Second Avenue, and Second Avenue is moving to Georgetown.

@34 - if there is a club in town that can't rely on the cash flow complaint it's the croc. Mrs. & Mr. Buck aren't missing any meals.

Get over the nostalgia. Clubs come and go. Scenes change. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him on sight.

Posted by rtm | December 17, 2007 11:59 AM

Eli, man . . . that just outright sucks. I will keep my eyes and ears peeled for you. Thanks for taking the time to chime in here.

I just remembered the posters I just silkscreened last week for the Red Jacket Mine show that won't be happening January 4th . . . ah well.

If anyone wants to join forces on an "Unfuck the Crocodile Staff" benefit, let me know - that is a worthy cause if ever there was one.

Posted by Levislade | December 17, 2007 12:01 PM


And then Art Chantry convinces all the whores and assholes to move to Tacoma.
Thanks for that.

I am sad about the Crocodile. I don't think we should be blaming people until we know the whole story though.

Posted by nikka | December 17, 2007 12:05 PM

I'm trying to keep my perspective here- I'm super bummed about this, not the least because we were booked to play there later this month. Obviously, this is a huge loss of a venue with a lot of history and jim behind the board, which put on a lot of great shows and was a major hub of the scene. It is as identified for me with Seattle music as First Ave is in Minneapolis where I grew up.

There are a lot of people billing this as another nail in the coffin of the Seattle music scene. While # 67 got it totally right as far as downtown is concerned, In the 9 years since I moved here, off the top of my head the following venues have opened: Chop Suey opened (now booked by Pete from The Croc) Nectar opened, The High Dive took over for whatever that lousy place was before it, and Aro Space was renovated and became Neumos. I'm hopeful that especially since Pete is over at Chop Suey now, that they will fill some of the void.

I wish they'd open the doors for a night just so we could have a wake. What a lousy way to go out.

Posted by David | December 17, 2007 12:16 PM

#74, totally. There should totally be an unfuck the Crocodile staff benefit. Count me in. Hard to imagine the right venue...

Posted by David | December 17, 2007 12:21 PM

Eli's post @72 is a bummer on so many levels. I am very sorry to hear that employees were given no notice whatsoever. I can only hope they will be given some sort of severance, although that seems highly doubtful.

I have to guess that things started to take a turn at the Croc when longtime bar manager Val left to open his own joint (Solo on Queen Anne). If memory serves correctly, his departure was not long after longtime booking agent Christine left her post.

Rock clubs are dicey financial propositions and, while I agree with Fnarf that they are not charitable efforts, they do play an important role in the fabric of a city's culture. Particularly a venue as storied as the Crocodile.

Things change, businesses die. There are a million things I miss all the time. I am saddened that the Croc is now on that list but, what I find so bloody offensive about this debacle is the way it has been handled.

Loyal employees of any business deserve better than that from their bosses. Successfully booking a club relies heavily upon personal relationships. It sucks that folks put their own credibility and good word on the line for an employer that gave them no notice or warning about a closure.

It is distasteful to air dirty laundry in public but, since no one has brought it up, it should be noted that the divorce between Peter Buck and Stephanie Dorgan undoubtedly played a role in this unsavory story.

Sorry Eli, Jim, Kevin, and all the loyal employees that have helped make the Crocodile one of the best rooms in town. It's a god damn shame.

Posted by kerri harrop | December 17, 2007 12:21 PM

no warning makes me think there is already someone ready to take it on. what do you think: restaurant? or "AEG Presents: The Crocodile"?

Posted by Tuck | December 17, 2007 12:21 PM

@78 Thanks Kerri. You've always been the best to me.

But, honestly, I'm not expecting to get my last paycheck without a fight.

Posted by Eli | December 17, 2007 12:29 PM

It seems like with two Showbox locations now run by corporate media company AEG and Chop Suey and Nuemo's on Cap Hill, there was really too much competition among the mid-sized clubs for fans and bands. Too many clubs essentially. Plus the Croc's heyday was many many years ago... I think I've only been to one or two shows in the past 3 years there. Clubs close, even though we may have fond memories of a place, it's part of the never ending cycle (Ditto, Vogue, Uncle Rockeys, Gibsons, Lake Union Pub, the Vogue, Moes, the Weathered Wall, Velvet Elvis, Party Hall, Gorilla Gardens, Community World, etc.) Belltown still has small music and theater shows at the Rendezvous Jewel Box Theater, Shorty's, the Lava Lounge and a couple other good bars, I'm not seeing a major loss to the music scene with the Croc closing save for it's historical significance to the SubPop/grunge explosion in the early '90s, and those glory years are long gone. Still, thanks for the memories.

Posted by Dan Halligan | December 17, 2007 12:39 PM

The Croc was one of the staples as far as good rooms go in Seattle. I'm sorry to hear the way this is playing out and everyone deserves better than this. Thanks to Jim for all those years!! I hope everyone can land somewhere that will appreciate their work more than seems to be demonstrated in this.

Posted by heather duby | December 17, 2007 12:58 PM


Things change, businesses die. There are a million things I miss all the time.

Sit 'n Spin, Longshoreman's Daughter, Backdoor Ultralounge (when they had all the shit hanging from the walls), Bus Stop, etc, etc. All one of a kind, unique places I used to love going to are gone.

And yes, businesses come and go, but truly great places become institutions. And that doesn't happen by accident or through attrition. It happens because of hard work, passion and sacrifice. Something Seattle seems to coming up short on in many respects. (Excluding Vera.)

I can't help but think of The Casbah in San Diego. For such a shitty city (culturally), it's a damn fine place to drink and see a show. And it's still there after all these years. I suppose being under the airport's flight path has it's advantages. Hear that Georgetown?

Posted by Residential w/ Ground Floor Retail! | December 17, 2007 12:59 PM

Whoa, Dan H's post was a trip donw memory lane. Don't forget My Suzies and the Store Room!

Posted by Dougsf | December 17, 2007 1:02 PM

Someone wrote:

"Still, there's lot of amazing stuff going on and you can't really beat the scenery. Portland has a dirty river and a Mt. Rainer wannabe."


Right. There must be a reason all your artists are moving down the road a bit. Maybe it's the dirty river.

By all means, though, keep telling yourself that. Just do it in Seattle, and don't fuck up what we have by coming down here.

Jealous much?

Posted by timothy in PDX | December 17, 2007 1:07 PM

i was at the crocodile on saturday hanging out with Eli and i can attest that everyone working at that show knew nothing of the impending matter what kind of negative or critical stuff anyone is going to say about the club's financial status, business practices etc.; the place enriched many lives including mine. im gonna miss it. i miss the OK Hotel, Weathered Wall, Uncle Rockys , Gibsons etc etc too....i completely disagree that this is indicative in any way of the music scene in Seattle. There are sooo many amazing artists here and sooo many people who support the music scene...we are very lucky to have all of the clubs we still have.

One more thing to add: things are spreading out to the neighborhoods people can afford to live and have independent businesses in. The rise of music venues in Ballard, Georgetown, Fremont, West Seattle etc supports this trend. You can still enjoy the thriving local music scene, you just need to keep that bus transfer

Posted by kwab | December 17, 2007 1:59 PM

Over the years, the Croc has consistently been my favorite place in town to play, and they've always been good to the bands I've been in (Jim Anderson in particular).

I am sad to see it go, though I can't say I'm surprised, and it's an underwhelming end for such a storied place. But nothing lives forever, and the Croc had a hell of a run. No other club from the class of '91 lasted as long.

Posted by Potatoes O'Brien | December 17, 2007 2:11 PM

....i got a killer space in gtown.....let's trow some leftover shows in there
for real...get at me seattle spot gone.......this is bullshit......i'm going back to maui

Posted by analog! | December 17, 2007 2:23 PM

Great shows at the Croc:

Mudhoney/Nirvana (secret show)
Death Cab probably 10 times.
Western State/Long Winters
Modest Mouse (well, not a great show, but...still...)
50 more...

Oh well. C'est la vie.

Posted by Gmoney | December 17, 2007 2:42 PM

The Sunset's booked more great shows in the past five years than the Croc has.

Posted by Fnarf | December 17, 2007 2:44 PM

wow a Fnarf shout-out...thanks! but i would say "as many" great shows

Posted by kwab | December 17, 2007 2:51 PM

Classy Tim from PDX......every scene has its ups and downs, however Seattle on a down cycle is still putting out better shit than 90% of any other city in the just happens, for the first time in yout cities history, that Portland just happeneds to be in that upper 10%. Though this is not the time or place to get into PDX vs. SEA....

oh and are music scene must not be that bad if your on our city's blog.....

Posted by Ty | December 17, 2007 3:01 PM

Fnarf, name 3 of those Sunset shows.

Posted by huh? | December 17, 2007 3:04 PM

For all the staff that is being impacted by the Crocodile's closure and uncertain payment of wages, please contact MusiCares for possible financial assistance (800.687.4227). MusiCares provides a safety net for music community members in times of crisis. You can also call my office at 206.834-1000 if you need more information.

I have played the Crocodile more times than I can count over the years and while the venue may be history, we all need to try and help the staff transition.

No one venue holds the keys to our community, it is the group of people that stand on the stages, the audiences that come to see them and the people that work behind the scenes to make it all happen that make this scene great.

Ben London

Posted by Ben London | December 17, 2007 3:06 PM

While it is certainly sad to hear, it should really come as no surprise that it is closing under the current ownership -- under the current circumstances. What is surprising and disturbing is the manner of which this was done...without notice...without any type of thank you to the patrons or tribute night or any opportunity for the employees to find job placement (not to mention doing this 1 week from the start of the holidays when money is tight for employees to begin with). I am hopeful that someone (or..more likely, a group of individuals) can take over and keep it as a music venue. If this can happen, I'd be far more more excited at the future prospects of the place than I am saddened to hear that the current ownership has thrown in the towel. I'm sure the club could thrive once again under more competent management. I've actually sort of boycotted the place the last several years because I found it to be pretty shitty in terms of how harassing and unreasonable security has been in the past and how rude the some of the bar staff could be (however, my most recent experiences have been great). Maybe this development could be a turn for the better for the Croc instead of the bummer of an end it seems to be.

Posted by croc-o-shit | December 17, 2007 3:33 PM

Tim from Portland - did you really read what I wrote? I was lamenting the fact that Portland seems on the up and up whereas it seems like Seattle is having trouble w/ growing pains / gentrification / city hall hold ups / non-progressive politics, and it's becoming a non-artist-friendly city to live in. Your town, for the time being, doesn't have those problems, but Seattle "boomed" first and it's just part of the lifecycle of an artistic town. I wasn't dissing Portland.

Both cities are rad. And if creative Seattleites want to move to your town why would you discourage that? I've met and connected with tons of Portland musicians and none have the attitude that you have. Everyone of them has commiserated with our difficulties finding affordable housing and a supportive community of other musicians.

Why are you such a bummer? Did Paul Allen run over your dog?

Posted by Pecknold | December 17, 2007 3:44 PM

Huh? @93: The Lucksmiths have played the Sunset three times. Every one of those shows was 130 times better (or more) than the best show at the Croc in the last five years.

Posted by Fnarf | December 17, 2007 4:49 PM

The last show that I attended at the Croc was Imperial Teen. It was fitting because I was with my pal from Mpls who came in for the show and to hang out that weekend. Even more fitting because I attended my first show there about 10-12 years ago with that same individual, back when we were both living in Mpls and visited Seattle regularly. It seems that I've only been to the club a handful of times since moving out here, which well...I regret. I have fond, fond memories of the many shows that I've seen there over the years and the many brunches that I've hunched over with a hang over. Rocking at the Croc at night and nursing a hang over during brunch the next day, entertained by Babe. That's how I'll remember it. Those were the days.

Posted by Dod | December 17, 2007 5:40 PM

Jim, Kevin, Pete, and all at the croc - thank you guys for everything you did for our various bands over the years, the croc and particularly the people who made it what it was will be sorely missed. It's a sad day in Seattle...


Posted by Tron Carter | December 17, 2007 6:26 PM

I am sure another starbucks will go up in its place.

Seattle is losing all its old unique places...speakeasy, sit n spin, rkcndy, now croc cafe.

Posted by Otto | December 17, 2007 6:57 PM

Jim is one of the best if not the best Sound guy in the NW. Hope all goes well for him and in order to guarantee Jim or anyone else doesn't get screwed since his equipment is still inside the Crocodile 2 things need to be made clear to anyone interested in Purchasing The Crocodile!! Please pay attention...

1. Stephanie(Crocodile Owner) does NOT own the Sound equipment, Jim Does). It would be unfair to Jim to take the value of his equipment and add it to the Value of what Stephanie might be selling the club for.

2. The Liquor License is in Peter Bucks Name NOT Stephanie Dorgans name so If anyone is interested in purchasing the club for a fair price, Take both of those pieces of info under consideration and don't get screwed like many of the employees did.
We would hate to have any further "surprises" catch anybody else off guard when it comes to issues regarding the current and future situation of the Crocodile, especially right before the holidays.
We love you former Crocodile Employees.

Posted by Sleeperagent | December 17, 2007 7:17 PM

the closing of the croc is indeed sad - as witnessed by the fact that i've spent the better part of the past two days exchanging nostalgic texts and emails with almost everyone i know. i really hope someone steps in to keep it open so it can have a chance to bounce back. i have quite seriously spent some of the best nights of my life (and some of the blurriest) in that particular venue.

a few thoughts:

you can demonize stephanie (and i'm not going to defend how this went down for a second) but she's not a bad person. she has always been exceptionally great to me and i don't think it's fair to lash out at people you don't know or have first-hand experience with. the reason why the croc thrived for years was because she employed some spectacular people (christine, constance, val and kevin, in particular) who she trusted enough to do their job - and who did their jobs spectacularly.

unfortunately, the croc never really recovered from christine, constance and val leaving - or kevin not being there regularly at shows.

the crocodile was an institution because we all had a relationship with the staff (JIM, babe, theodore, eddie, amber, becky, stacy, fred, etc) in a way that doesn't exist under normal circumstances.

and with all due respect to latter-day staff, that connection never really clicked. not in the same way.

it's insanely moving to see the demise of a venue affect people like this. it's a tribute to the community that was created and forged there - the community i hope will either find another location (comet? sunset?) or reclaim the croc.

as for portland - don't get me started. two-plus years of living there and experiencing what's happening first-hand and i can tell you with no sense of hesitation that while there might be a lot of creativity (and cheaper rents) it doesn't hold a candle to seattle in terms of having an interconnected and supportive music community.

contradict me if you dare!

Posted by Barbara Mitchell | December 17, 2007 7:22 PM

Things change. When you consider the value of the land under the croc, it is no surprise. Besides it being a very cool venue, there is no historic significance to the building itself. Look at Triple Door. That is a *cool building* that was worth keeping and renovating. Is the building the crocodile in worth saving?

New venues that spring up all the time. New buildings can be great places for a venue because the sound proofing is better and there is modern electric wiring. Better, if you can get in on the ground floor, you can have a say in how the thing is designed to optimize for loud music.

That said... I'll miss the crocodile. Hopefully the creative people who were working there can start up the next big venue...

Posted by Guy on Bellevue Ave | December 17, 2007 8:11 PM

while i haven't been to see a show at the croc in over a year, & i've only been to 3 shows in the last 3-4 years, that room does hold some good memories for me.
and it always sucks when a seattle club goes tits up.

my favorite memory was at a gas huffer/smugglers show 10 years ago or so. smugglers (a great band from vancouver BC - RIP) were on stage but i had to piss to i went to the bathroom. while standing at the urinal 3-4 jarheads fresh off the boat came in and this is what i overheard-

jarhead 1 - "should we mosh to these guys"
jarhead 2 - "naw, they're from canada"

Posted by brianmyfatass | December 17, 2007 8:17 PM

Pecknold @96:

Fair enough. Now that I read your comment again, "Portland has a dirty river and a Mt. Rainer wannabe." is obviously a compliment.

Silly me!

Posted by timothy in PDX | December 17, 2007 8:52 PM

the croc suffered from low attendence, as many clubs do, i've been there dozens of times this year, with maybe 50 people there, that sucks- so it is a lack of support that we all need to own up to as well.
my best to the staff.

Posted by robert | December 17, 2007 9:16 PM

settle down. none of this is about portland vs. seattle (they're both great, and both very different).

i've been to the croc countless times this year... all great shows. jason lytle, handsome furs, battles, just to name a few.

and man - that colorful stained glass wall makes me weak in the knees...

Posted by kim | December 17, 2007 10:25 PM

Total blast. Now it's dead. But really, Belltown's been dying for a while now unless you like gold diggers with fake boobs. I predict it will become another poorly designed 14 story condo building.

To all who commented as such: no, Stephanie is not a bitch. You should thank her - name one other club in this town that stayed around as long. Exactly.

You don't have to flee to Portland, but you do have to head South a little bit. Three cheers for Columbia City and Georgetown! The Seattle you remember stills exists - you just got to have a designated driver now.

Posted by The Show Will Go On...And Is Going On | December 17, 2007 10:57 PM

After moving here from Maui in 1998, and living in Belltown since then, I finally saw my first concert at the Croc about a month ago when Sia performed there. Over the years, people have suggested having breakfast there, but I never went. Now I'm regretting it. After seeing only one show there, I can see why so many folks are upset that the place is closed. Paul Allen will never make back what he put into renovating the Cinerama. Sometimes it's about more than the bottom line. It's about saving places that have provided such great memories for so many people. Here's to hoping someone local steps up.

P.S. That Flickr picture isn't too far fetched. However, instead of a Quiznos, Subway, nail shop or Starbucks going in, maybe just keep the Croc there and build around it. After reading all of the comments, I find myself wishing the best for Jim, Eli and the rest of the staff of the Croc. Really, someone should throw a benefit for the staff. It's terrible the way that they were treated in all of this...

Posted by Matthew | December 18, 2007 1:09 AM

Someone should just start organizing shows on the sidewalks in front of these ghost town venues.

I'll pay $5 to see a band I don't even like play in front of the entrance to any of these awful new condos.

Posted by Bryce Beamish | December 18, 2007 6:45 AM

that bites. I have super fond memories of getting wasted there for my 32nd birthday, two years ago...

but I've snagged three of their displaced bands, (Danielli, Megasapien, and another in the works) for my first show booking for my new Re-bar night, Teatro Con Carne on January 17th (tickets are only $5; show starts at 11pm)so that's good news...

wow, that was a shameless plug.

Posted by michael strangeways | December 18, 2007 9:24 AM

God Damned belltown condo rats. Yuppies are a disease.

I'll be happy to throw a brick through the windows of whatever overpriced shops they errect over the Croc.

Posted by Sid the Squid | December 18, 2007 11:41 AM

I'm sorry, but informing such a wonderful group of employees that they're out of a job the week before Christmas by having the locks changed overnight seems like the definition of "Bitch" to me.

Posted by Michael | December 18, 2007 12:34 PM

This sudden turn of events couldn't possibly make me happier. Here's what the Croc has offered in the past couple years:

1. Horrible sound and a mystifyingly nonechalant attitude about it. I have actually seen a soundman fall asleep while the headlining artist has having a microphone disaster.

2. Staff that range from unhelpful to downright asinine.

3. Shows populated by the same crusty, aging, garage-rock scenesters -- and no one else. National and international touring bands who would draw hundreds of actual music fans at any other venue would play the Croc and there would be an embarrassingly tiny audience of these "hey do you remember that Brendan Canty show in 1997?" idiots.

Apparently I wasn't the only one who learned to avoid the Croc like the plague.

Good riddance.

Posted by Thankgod | December 18, 2007 4:31 PM

While I love(d) the croc and saw some great shows there it did have it's problems. The sound was marginal and it literally took about half an hour to get a beer when it was crowded. Do you think they would have made more money if they had another bartender? I imagine they lost a ton of money on the cafe portion of the club too. The one time I ate their I quickly realized it was a mistake. Despite their somewhat interesting menu, they were out of half the items on it. Even worse was the typical "fuck you" service that you get when your server is just too damn cool to give a fuck about your refilling your water or bringing you your check in under 2 hours. The cafe simply wasn't run very well and I'm guessing the income suffered significantly as a result. I don't think Croc closing has anything to do with condos or Seattle's music scene... it was simply run like shit.

Posted by Sad, but not surprised | December 18, 2007 6:32 PM

Exactly two people have come to Ms. Dorgan's defense, saying she's not a bad person. Not exactly a rousing confirmation of her humanity. But fine, whatever, she's been nice to you. Most of us who don't know her personally can only judge her based on her public actions. And those actions, past and present, tell the rest of us that she's a difficult, deceitful, condescending, heartless BITCH. And the fact that she was once a lawyer before she married into money comes as absolutely no surprise at all.

Posted by rk | December 18, 2007 9:20 PM

This will show that I'm painfully old, but I used to go to punk & new wave gigs they sometimes hosted at a Greek restaurant that I'm pretty sure was in exactly that location some years before the Croc. I believe it was the Athens Cafe. And with any luck, we'll be able to talk about a next venue in the same location.

The Croc has been a good place. I'm amazed so many people are willing to blame SD for its demise and so few to thank her for its existence.

Of course the loss of any good club will be felt, and no denying the Croc was often one of the best, but time moves on, and clubs come and go. The Croc was one of the longest-lived, but it's not like there are no good venues left in Seattle, or like the people who booked shows at the Croc over the years are all suddenly going to leave Seattle.

So instead of bitching, either DIY or haul out to Ballard to see good shows at the Tractor or the Sunset. Not that those are the only good venues in town, but they are probably going to pick up some of the slack left by the absence of the Croc. Or maybe we'll get lucky and this will light a fire under Chop Suey to meet that standard.

Posted by Jmabel | December 18, 2007 10:04 PM

The Croc's website hasn't been updated at all since the news broke all over the place about the closure.

Pretty fucking weak.

Posted by caseyjr | December 19, 2007 12:05 AM

I was lucky to be able to work at the Croc as a Doorguy, then Promotions and Boking agent from 94-99; I have many strong memories of awesome shows and great times during this period. Anyone who has even had remote contact with Stephanie over the years will understand;
a) How much she loved the place.
b) The Reputation and integrity of the club came first and foremost.
So the way things have come down is pretty fu**ing shocking. I can only assume that things were in desperate financial shape for her to lockup shop in the middle of the night. It's an embarrassing and humliating way for any business to end; I think all of us who have put in many years their HATE to see it end this way.
It's just bad news to hear how current employees were treated and informed of this closure, right before the holidays. I can only say that Stephanie treated our team very well over the years and was a pleasure to work for in the most part, very supportive and loyal. Sometimes personal financial conditions can dictate some pretty drastic measures; I can only assume this is the reason for such a turnaround and the abrupt closure.

Many of us established life-long freindships, partnerships (like the time Dan Savage married seven couples in the bar's makeshift wedding chapel on Valentines Day 1995!) and the like at the Croc; its memories are an idelable part of our life. I toast all the characters who helped make it so special; the bands, the patrons and the staff. Hopefully a wake of some sort will be arranged soon.

Peter "English" Verbrugge

Posted by PeterV | December 19, 2007 5:21 AM

Lets hope that this is not permanent and the Croc will once more live again. For bands that need help:
The Lo-Fi Performance Gallery on Eastlake Ave would like to help out with bands that were booked at the Croc and will now need a new place to play. check for specs. contact me for info

Posted by Lo-Fi | December 19, 2007 10:01 AM

Condos my A-Hole! Why the big suprise? The owners and management treated the staff, the local bands and the patrons like crap. Because a major 90's Rock Star owned it? Yup! That's him in the corner... cashing in his ex wife for a younger more sporty model. Now... imagine working for the Ex Mrs. Rock Star and her beach-on-wheels Sister. (Ugh..) Starting to get the picture? Unsuspecting wait staff were dispenced like dixie cups and sometimes you were lucky if your paycheck didn't bounce on the way to the bank. AND NO, I've never worked there. Let's discover some of the other possibilities why it closed shall we... How about the dreded Drink Nazi bar tender (singular) in the back? What an A-Rod! Ready to pay 8 bucks and get screamed at by an aggro (I hate my job) hipster in a line 30 patrons deep? "NEXT!.. NEXT! WHO's NEXT!" like slaves on the Santa Maria.. some nights you could die of thirst waiting... "NEXT!" And who hasn't been standing in line looking at the same art on the walls for 5 FREAKIN' years? For me (and thousands of other Seattlites) The Croc totally "lost it's cool" with the addition of the over-the-top DOOR BOUNCER. What a direct insult to the community (You know what I'm talking about) The place holds maybe 600 people and Joe Headset is telling you to "spread 'em" for the big pat down, like it's the Key Arena! (in your mind) "Hey is Van Halen playing here tonight? What's with the men-in-black goon squad? "Get your damn dirty hands off me you big ape I'm here with Twiggy to see The Buttersprites!

"did you copy that... over?"

The end.

Posted by Bandy | December 19, 2007 7:11 PM

Just for the record/some things to think about:

Peter Buck doesn't have anything to do with the Croc apart from the fact that he used to be married to its owner.

Has anyone thought that the trauma of having to shut down a business you've owned for 16+ years might put you in a headspace where you're not acting rationally? Again - not defending the way things went down. AT ALL. Just saying that there's more than one side to consider.

And a lot of history.

For all the negativity being poured out, the Croc wouldn't have existed for this long if it hadn't been a place that attracted great people who worked for Stephanie. Who poured their heart and soul and their own blood, sweat and tears into making something happen there. Who helped create something that meant enough (positively or negatively, apparently) for all of us to be continuing to comment.

No one is perfect, and anyone who's worked for someone (or been friends with them, or is related to them, etc.) is going to have something to say.

I just find it interesting that the people who are the most negative are the ones who don't know Stephanie. And the ones who have come to her defense are the ones who do.

Again - I find it shocking/disheartening/disappointing that things transpired the way they did.

I just think that if you're going to post something, you might want to think about it before you hit 'send'...

Posted by Barbara Mitchell | December 19, 2007 10:11 PM

Just for the record/some things to think about:

Peter Buck doesn't have anything to do with the Croc apart from the fact that he used to be married to its owner.

Has anyone thought that the trauma of having to shut down a business you've owned for 16+ years might put you in a headspace where you're not acting rationally? Again - not defending the way things went down. AT ALL. Just saying that there's more than one side to consider.

And a lot of history.

For all the negativity being poured out, the Croc wouldn't have existed for this long if it hadn't been a place that attracted great people who worked for Stephanie. Who poured their heart and soul and their own blood, sweat and tears into making something happen there. Who helped create something that meant enough (positively or negatively, apparently) for all of us to be continuing to comment.

No one is perfect, and anyone who's worked for someone (or been friends with them, or is related to them, etc.) is going to have something to say.

I just find it interesting that the people who are the most negative are the ones who don't know Stephanie. And the ones who have come to her defense are the ones who do.

Again - I find it shocking/disheartening/disappointing that things transpired the way they did.

I just think that if you're going to post something, you might want to think about it before you hit 'send'...

Posted by Barbara Mitchell | December 19, 2007 10:11 PM

@122 For the record... Washington is a Community Property State one of only 9 West of the Mississippi River. Mr. Buck in the eyes of the State and the IRS ownes/owned 50% of The Crocodile.
What Ms Stephanie did to the Staff @ Xmas time? (with allrespect to you 122) was morally reprehensible... This Attorney new exactly what she was doing.


Posted by Bandy | December 20, 2007 3:11 PM

Having indeed known Stephanie personally I can vouch for the fact that she will *not* look out for her employees while saying everything to the contrary. As she told me a few years ago 'people have noticed I am not doing so well lately'...
The reasons for her dark time seemed pretty straightforward to me.

People close to me often say I should write a book about my horrifying experiences in her employ, but public tell-alls betray the trust implied and necessary for hiring and working within a home (Plus, who wants to write such sad stuff?).

Beyond being glad that she would have no further impact on my life, I walked away thinking that while there is good and bad in all of us Stephanie's good parts are at *best* misdirected.

I love and feel for her daughters... both of whom I think of more often than they know. I hope Stephanie uses her newfound time to get to know them in earnest, they are the most valuable things in her life.

Posted by Anon | December 24, 2007 11:48 PM


Posted by VOODOOU | December 26, 2007 6:05 PM

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